“aiming for “perfection” in our diets assumes we know what the perfect diet is.”

Right. And we don’t have the first damn clue. Right now at this point in my life, lots of fruit keeps me energized, satiated, my palette happy, and low on the stress meter… so that’s what I eat

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I totally agree with you about ‘orthorexia’. I myself had a little taste of just how easily orthorexia could develop only a couple of weeks ago when I was finding myself ravenous, but refusing to eat sufficient simply because I didn’t happen to have any perfectly healthy, wholesome, natural, pure (etc) food in at those times, etc.

Fortunately, I became aware of the foolishness of that unhealthy and ‘uptight’ thinking, and the probable danger of letting such an attitude become a habit.

From that experience, I’d say that orthorexia is another word for [food] perfectionism. Perfectionism is rarely if ever productive. A healthier attitude would be: “if I achieve a diet that is only, say, 80% to 90% healthy – AND ENJOY IT TOO – it’s going to be MASSIVELY healthier than all the sh!t I used to eat for years and years.

Furthermore, aiming for “perfection” in our diets assumes we know what the perfect diet is. We can strive to learn what the ‘perfect’ diet is, but it’s foolish to switch off to our animalistic/natural cravings while doing so. In other words, I suspect that it is impossible to become orthorexic as long as we pay attention to our cravings and respond to them (as wisely as we can).

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Eat whatever you want staying away from most processed shit, and you will love life. Don’t sweat eating cake on your birthday or some pizza on a friends birthday. IT IS SO EASY to get orthorexia when you delve into the health food arena. It really is what messes people up. Sometimes even more so than they were before.

Do not follow gurus! Pick through their stuff for ideas (like in 80/10/10) that you feel you can use, and leave it at that. I don’t care if that’s me, Jesus Christ, Mark Sisson, or Dr. Oz. Don’t be a sheep. Do not get sucked into dogma. That’s the biggest mistake (and setback) I made in the beginning of my journey.

2,000 meters is a good day my friend Its a rare day I do that much.

If you like eating fruit, go nuts on it! If you prefer potatoes and rice, well then do that. Whatever you’re doing should NOT be a source of stress.

On the D thing… I’ve always dosed D for the most part. Especially on paleo. I super-dosed when I got sick. The sunshine is good for mood no doubt, but when I started eating lower fat and carbs everything about my mood changed. I moved so I could train in better conditions, not because I hated where I was or anything like that. I went back to the rain for a 3 weeks in Dec. Ate as close to what I do here. Mood and energy was great. As a matter of fact, better than it is at the moment. LOL

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Just wanted to say I’ve spent most of the last few days going through ALL your posts here in this blog (including checking out many of the links), and it’s been absolutely brilliant: really mind-expanding, challenging and very inspiring. Probably life changing.

And I’ve loved getting the little insights into your life, whether it’s images of half-butchered wild animals, great mountain views, or – as you put it – a little “bike porn”. (I love bouncing on the pedals to climb up challenging, long hills on the road bike. Never done more than about 2000 metres ascent in one day though: maybe that’ll change with some banana power…)

I only started to get perma-serious about my health a few months ago, and “The Mood Cure” (a book which someone recommended) has been part of what led me to give up refined sugars, margarine, processed “veg” (ie., grain) oils, baked goods, bread and other grains, etc., etc. Then I discovered “Paleo”/”Primal” only a week or two ago, and realised that I had already gravitated to being on a “low-carb paleo” diet just through my own dietary research – ie., BEFORE I’d even heard of the term.

I feel fortunate that you already have me convinced that I should avoid getting sucked under by the low-carb current, and am now VERY likely to experiment with a high fruit approach. Think I’ll get the 80/10/10 book, and – at least at this point – I suspect I’ll go for lots of fruit for breakfast and lunch, and have one “normal” fish/salad/veg type meal in the evening…

Anyway, more than anything, I just wanted to say thanks for sharing it all, you’ve got a great attitude to life, and I hope to see or hear more from you in the near future.

Addenda: a thought that occurred to me: perhaps a part of why you have felt so much better since your emphasis on the fruit is that, as far as I could tell, this coincided (?) with you spending a lot more time out in the sun. (Is that correct?) Moving further South and then to Hawaii. And that means your Vit D will be topped up nicely. I like the hypothesis that Vitamin D is like the hibernation (/ non-hibernation) hormone: in other words, lack of Vit D leads us to ache, be depressed, have lower energy, be fatter, and also puts limits on healing… all things that conserve our energy, or motivate us to conserve our energy, in order to help us survive the winter months. High levels (natural summer levels) of Vit D promote the opposites: high energy, feeling better, loss of weight, fuller healing of injuries, lower susceptibility to illness, etc., because Vit D signals “summer” when there’s probably plenty of food available. I may not have explained this idea very well, which comes from a very cheap, self-published book called “THE MIRACULOUS RESULTS OF EXTREMELY HIGH DOSES OF THE SUNSHINE HORMONE VITAMIN D3…” (see amazon) which explains it much better. It’s been enough to get me out in the sun more, and the difference that makes to how I feel is huge.

Ciao for now, and good luck.

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I’m not even sure why a primal or paleo diet should be thought of as low-carb these days. The idea of it seems pretty silly in hindsight.

The best thing paleo has going for it is advocating real food. Paleo itself is a very large tent that just about anything can be tossed under when convenient. Pretty much the only reason it’s still gaining traction.

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Couldn’t “low carb Paleo” be more simply called “low carb?” If not, what are the differences?

Thanks, Bill

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I’ve found, if I’ve been calorie restricting (usually unintentional) I’ll crave more fat.

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What do you consider a good % percentage calories coming from fat?

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I’ve settled into a “fuck the dogma, eat real and tasty food” approach to all of this and it seems to working well. Wild caught trout from a pond it took a 7 mile hike to reach baked with some organic potatoes and a big bowl of stewed apples for dessert? Fuck yes.

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For any other aspiring spammers: Paleo is currently a hot trending diet. Jump on board and write a book with the same content as everyone else and make yourself some loot!

Low-carb paleo is really simple… Eat meat and non-starchy vegetables. Especially bacon & liver. If you start to feel like shit, just add more fat. That’s it! Oh, and lower carbs too.

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Alex, Thanks for the kind words. You can reach that level of athleticism. I’m nothing special, just stubborn

My “coming soon” podcast show will be 1,000 times better resource for helping people than this website. I’m really excited to get what I want to say out verbally, rather than scribbling scattered, muddied, half forgotten points like the stuff spewed here.

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I suppose if you broke them, you’d potentially get more of the marrow contents if the bones were not already cut. Exposing the insides. I usually eat the bones and stuff, so I end up getting it anyway.

Chicken feet will work well. Once cooled, the broth is as thick as jello.

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Grok – you’re pretty great. I wish I could reach the level of athleticism and stamina that you’ve achieved. Keep blogging about everything you do, when you have the time. You write some great shit. You’re probably busy with doing what makes you happy, but I want to you to know that your blog posts gave a lot of help to me.

The world of health/nutrition/whatever needs you guys.

Blah, blah, blah… I could say a lot more, but just don’t stop blogging your ideas – especially Grok/Chuck – they’re really helpful.

Thanks,
Alex

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This whole bone broth idea has been on the back burner of my mind to try. A grocery store in town sells chicken feet. Tell me, is it okay to use things like thighs, too?

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You can eat something like 15 large bananas to get the same amount of tryptophan that you’d get from one egg.

It’s hard to write about the things I test, because it comes over periods of months and there are so many variables. I’m not a science writer. I’m not a writer of any kind. I don’t even know where to start when I sit down, because it’s such a web processes and I don’t know how to make it practical. I can talk, but I’m horrible at developing thoughts in a monolog. This is why my videos suck and I don’t post them often. Maybe the podcast can bridge some gaps.

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Good tip on the no fridge. Forgot that part. What he said ˄

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A frequent dish at my wife’s relatives’ holiday parties (they’re Filipino) is stewed pig’s feet. Soooo much gelatin. The spoon will literally get glued to the bowl if you let it cool long enough.

Seriously though, I would suggest *not* putting the container of hot stock/broth directly into the fridge. Let the container cool instead in a sink of full of ice or ice water. Or, if it’s wintertime (and you live in a temperate climate), put it outside in the snow. Then put it in the fridge. It will cool much more rapidly that way, and won’t risk overworking the refrigerator and/or warming up everything else inside it. If you make small quantities, though, it probably doesn’t matter.

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Go to the store and buy the cheap stuff like ox tail, chicken feet, cow feet, misc other bones, turkey necks, anything that anyone else wouldn’t buy.

Take it home and put it in the crock pot all day/days. Poor all the liquid into a container and put in the fridge (update: let it cool down first). After it cools, skim off the fat into the garbage can. Rewarm the liquid when you want a yummy soup base or drink.

Eat the left over bones and stuff if you want. I do

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I followed up this weekend with a forced partial rest day and 1 day of 1,400yd swim, 119 miles of cycling, and a 9 mile run. Then, the next day I crashed on a curb riding around some tourists after my swim screwing up my knee, shoulder, and wrist, ruining my scheduled 200+ miles for the next two days before leaving on vacation

I’m fully recovered now and kickin ass again. Stay tuned.

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As long as you’re not gaining weight by adding peanut butter, knock yourself out! You might try a healthier PB alternative like macadamia if you can spring for it.

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The junk food was kind of a sub test. Really it was just a good excuse to eat junk food for the last two weeks while I’ve been on vacation. I knew it wouldn’t be as easy to be on my normal regimen, so I just seized the opportunity. All in the name of science of course Back to the norm tomorrow. I did learn some new things and reinforced things I already knew, so the 10lbs or whatever I gained was probably worth it. I can rip those back off in two weeks without dieting.

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Yes, take it with your meal that contains fat.

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I thought you might have written something here on your blog explaining your change of tune, but there is nothing. Is this some kind of experiment? What’s the deal, yo?

By no means do I think a relaxing of rules around which foods are “ok to eat” and which aren’t, is unhealthy. There is a time and place for everything, for sure. I personally went out with some friends for Indian food 2 weeks ago (haven’t had Indian food for YEARS) and I had a great time, loved the food and didn’t think twice about it. During the height of my raw obsession, you couldn’t have paid me to eat Indian food. No way!

I think eat a very pure, very clean diet is wonderful, but trying to live that way permanently is too isolating from others. The rigid rules you have construct to separate yourself from the foods that everyone else is eating just becomes (for me, anyway) too alienating and depressing.

Anyway, curious to hear what’s been going on with you…

Heather

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My ratios look are somewhere 65-85% carbs, 10-15% protein usually. Fat makes up the rest. Coconut oil is about the only fat I consume. The rest comes from the eggs and fruits. I almost never eat nuts.

I steam about all my veggies except most of the carrots I eat. Too tough on digestion and I like the cooked ones better anyway. I don’t eat a lot of veggies because they’re too damn expensive here, so I take an iron free multi-mineral. The rest is raw eggs, raw fish, very rarely misc other raw/cooked things (usually seafood), and more recently tested out whey again to assess tolerance.

I like the “all the time energy” the lower-fat and higher-carbs gives me. Keep me ready for anything life throws my way. Just add animals for those few other nutrients

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I have found that — over the last several months — i am less interested in animal products (again), but what lead me to animal products was feeling pretty terrible (mostly had “brain fog” and lethargy) as a vegetarian/vegan. When I went back to meat, I felt better. I was about 40% fat (eggs, meat, avocados, coconut cream — no oils added, etc), 30% protein; 30% carbohydrate (veggies mostly, then fruit, and sweet potato once a week as a ‘refeed’).

I have started to adjust my diet toward more raw foods (as cooked foods are less and less appetizing), and intrequed by the Doug Graham way of doing things.

but, i’m looking at continuing eggs and fish — which would be about 1-2 eggs daily plus fish 2x week or so.

the thing that is tough for me is. . . there’s just so much “conflicting” science on it. I’ve been reading a lot of the science from all kinds of angles (still waiting on Graham’s book to come in the mail), and I just can’t figure it.

I think I’m just really having a hard time figuring out which way to get started. Just do this? Just try that? go over here and do this?

I suppose this ramble is about guidance. How does 80/10/10 work? does it work well? And from there, how does adding in meat help? hinder?

I know that 80/10/10 is the opposite of what I’ve been doing (which is zone-like, actually now that i look at it), and I think i’d just like to put my pyramid in the other way — maybe 40% fruit/veg carbohydrates; 30 protein; 30% fat (i love my avocados). But who knows if I can get that much fat?

I don’t know. What do your ratios normally look like?

Tak.

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As above, NOT for long-term.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/news-archive/2010/self-inflicted-vitamin-d-toxicity/

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@Lindsay, I’ll be hosting my own show after the start of the new year. And yep… Hawaii welcomes me back with open arms in 3 weeks. 2012 is my re-birth year. I’m dialed in

Good grief I forgot how cheap food was here! Everything over there costs 3x as much except grapes and avocados.

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Happy Holidays in any case, lovely man.

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I think my strongest suggestion is talk to your physician or diabetic nurse and ask them for resources about specific meals and foods that are benificial to a person with diabetes diet.

Keep up the reading and hard work everyone, very interesting reading!

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you read all about the videoserie at Don Matesz blog. He has done already three threads on it, and probably continues. This video series is to Paleo what computers were to writing machines. Enjoy every bit.

Paleo just got debunked, from the waist down.

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At the time I did think some of what he said was good, some funny but…I can’t remember what his points were anymore.

It was quite clear that he too has a set dogmatic view, being vegan/ fruitarian it seemed to be hinted at. Which for me ruins anything he has to say.

The main thing I got from it was, SHIT, did I just spend the best part of a day watching a voiceovered slideshow on youtube about paleo dogmatism by a vegan dogmatist.

Being healthy is not about doing that, I could have done anything, eat anything and would have had a better day than watching youtube opinions.

And that is the problem, too much time, too much choice.

The quicker we go back to having to “hunt”, “gather” our food, the quicker we will forget about what is right and wrong, what is good or bad. No farming is good farming. We are so far detached from the food supply, we get to bitch and moan and argue on the internet about it from our high thrones.

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If I had time to watch all the videos, that would mean I’d have time to finally move my blog off of the caveman platform which I’ve been wanting to do for more than a year. It even has a new domain, (Couch2Ultra.com) but it’s only a redirect currently. Being that I mostly eat from a template of paleo foods, it’s still sort of relevant.

Myself nor anyone I know has any interest in making whole wheat part of our diets. Why? Because frankly, it’s not tasty until processed. Rice is the only unprocessed or lightly processed grain I really have much liking for, and I like it a lot. Most of the time it’s just a far too efficient calorie vehicle to make a staple of my diet on a regular basis right now.

I might include brown rice with steamed veggies next month while I’m on the mainland, but will quit if it drains my motivation like it did last winter. I’m making far to much progress on my fruit and animal combo to suffer another major setback.

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It’s not a good idea to go after observer of the 1930s who never used the scientific method. I am referring to Price now. Why not after real scientist who worked in Africa, such as Burkitt.

You can also forget the processed wheat stuff. No one with credibility is advocating for the consumption of pizza bottoms or sugary bakery products.

Anyways, I am glad you are on the right tracks, just forget all the wheat-talk and notions of the (alleged) refutal of the China Project.

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I’m from the European Union. Here in Europe the Italians have reputaion of being the most healthiest, trimmest and skinniest folk in Europe. Guess where’s the highest wheat consumption. Comparing Minger to Beethoven and Mozart just makes you look ridiculous. I love the American sayin, “once you are in a hole, stop diggin’”. I am sure deep down you know all this very well.

Wheat is also covered in the videos, 22-23. Or rather the paleo-crews pseudoscience around it is covered.

“Glutein free diet may reduce the beneficial bacteria in your digestive tracks”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJxEZp-brOE&feature=player_detailpage

I highly recommend you look the whole video serie in chronological order. Let’s see whether you are so keen having the “caveman”-stamp in yuour blog afetr that. Howabout “Chronicles of a descendant to modern neolithic farmer”?

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And pseudoscience? Seems pretty obvious to me that Campbell was sweeping things under the rug. I won’t make the call that it was intentional (because frankly I don’t care), but it kind of seems that way. Denise pointed out holes in Campbell’s stuff. Where’s Campbell’s response refuting it?

If wheat was the same stuff now that we consumed even a few hundred years ago, I probably wouldn’t be a total wheat hater. On a personal level, I seem to have more problems from dairy, than wheat. At least in the short term. Other than it’s not terribly nutritious or tasty, I don’t have problems with someone including some whole wheat cereal in their diet. Celiacs being the exception I just wouldn’t tout it as a health food (or even worth consuming). Almost anything else is better eaten in it’s place.

To blame disease on consumption of animal products in any amount and not look at something like processed wheat is just silly. Look at a junk food eating vegan for evidence.

I really expected more from you Richard. I don’t blindly follow anyone. Admittedly I did about 2.5 years ago, but that’s because initially it was helping me and I was enthused about it.

I’ll give you the “make most of animals” message coming from WAPF, but not anti-plant. Since a lot of Price’s work showed the importance of fat soluble vitamins, and plants aren’t the best source for those, it kind of makes sense. I agree, that the “butter and fat” thing can mix the message more easily for those wanting to hear what they want to hear, but I hear the importance of the Price’s message, and I eat mostly plants. It’s kind of like Christianity… Was Jesus’s message one of fear, raping, pillaging, and taking over the world in the name of God and savior, or is that something that’s been adopted by zealot followers?

P.S. I’m agnostic and don’t want to talk about religion. It was just an example

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http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/12/primitive-nutrition-critique-of-paleo.html

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If you think Minger is good in crunching numbers you should’ve seen the tricks of the cigarette industry of the 1970s

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thanks for looking the videos for me

You have to be pretty darn naive to believe that Minger has a sincere interest in nutrition or willing put up an objective stance. The fact the she delivers her pseudoscience with eloquence is another chapter. As said, you can frequent with the bogus wheat analysis of the paleo-crew on the videos 62-65. Since you are not capable telling who is good at crunching data, I tell you, you’r better off from staying away from the bloggers that do that.

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On my “special thingy” for Minger… I don’t. She’s 24, not a English teacher, and not affiliated with WAPF. She has flaws, but does happen to be pretty good at crunching data. 24 is young, but has nothing to do with being good at something. I’ll spare you examples.

I’m considering writing a speech for WAPF. Does that make me affiliated with them? WAPF lobbies for small organic local farmers. Sounds like a bad thing to me! LMAO. I’m not really on board, but like veganism, their message is mostly good. I take from it what I need.

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I know you are a caveman, and don’t care about veganism. The video-channel is not about veganism. It’s about the bogus science of the paleo-crew “appeal to nature”. As said, these vids are of very high quality and thus recommended. I know you are not there anymore, but nevertheless those videos are great. I am also aware you have a special thingy for Minger, that’s ok. If you think a 23 year old english teacher, affiliated with Weston Price Foundation, can give you solid analysis, well….whatever rocks your boat.

I Particularly like the segment on cholesterol deniers, vids 40-42. Video number six is about the radical genetical adaptation which animals and humans have shown in the past history, that’s why for an evolutionary biologist the argument that we should eat like a bunch genetically drifted primitive tribes is hard to sell. Very fun stuff, you should thank me

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I do feel humans have a species specific diet. It’s that of an omnivorous one. That’s the only conclusion I draw. My personal preference, and that in which I promote, is one of mostly plants. Something closer to vegetarian than what’s thought to be standard paleo.

I care about animal welfare, but animals are part of the food chain. I’m not going to change my position on that. Veganism makes no sense to me, except for someone who has hyperactive emotions towards animal welfare. I don’t have those. Veganism might work for a good block of people long term, I just don’t have the emotions to care enough to take the risk to try.

I look, feel, and perform better with some animal products in the mix. Most of those products never had a face. I’m not a steak, bacon, and pork chop eater. Not that I don’t feel moderate amounts of those things can be part of a healthful diet, I just don’t find I need them, therefor I don’t go out of my way. If I want flesh, I’ll take fish in a second over any four legged creature. Been that way all my life, long before I ever put any effort into thinking about food.

I’d actually prefer to kill all the animal products I eat myself. I don’t like how detached people are from their foods (any kinds) these days. Unfortunately the way society is structured with jobs, taxes, etc.. that’s not an option for most anymore.

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I have to leave right now. Might expand on this later

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http://www.youtube.com/user/PrimitiveNutrition#p/u/6/RlD9W34sKbI

I salute you Grok from having the intellectual power to navigate away from teachings of the bloggers.

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Check out the few videos on Minger. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/user/PrimitiveNutrition#p/u/8/mlgrDFPu3gU

China study is covered on the vids 62-65, inuit health 27-28, this stuff is Gold everything from Cordain, Phinney, Masai health, etc.

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The traditional Japanese cuisine is about 80% carbs, we ain’t seeing sick babies there. The same can be said about much of Asia. In fact we have famous pediatricians sain’ that kids should not be fed with meat and dairy at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Spock

Here’s the studies we should be paying attention

“We found that exposure to a high-fat diet before birth modifies gene expression in the livers of offspring so they are more likely to overproduce glucose, which can cause early insulin resistance and diabetes,” said Yuan-Xiang Pan, a U of I professor of nutrition”.

High-Fat Diet During Pregnancy Programs Child for Future Diabetes, Study Suggests

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110525164110.htm

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I’d have to read the study instead of the sound byte to find the holes in it, but frankly I don’t care. My future baby momma can eat all the whole food (fruits/veg/minimal grains) carbs she wants if they make her feel good. Momma not stressing out “trying” to stick to some diet out of the norm can’t be good for a fetus either.

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“I agree with you that it seems odd that you’d eat more carbs to make your babies healthier with all the negative effects on health they have been shown to have”.

LOL….this is insane. lets go to Central-Africa rural China where people have been consuming near-vegan diets forever, carbs come around 80% of the calories, what we are seeing is the most healthy, trim and strongest people on the globe. So now we have (allegedly) studies showing that feeding babies potatoes & whole-grains causes problems. Ahem…….

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A little bit of ill affects. Had to take a probiotic for a week or two to help digestion if I remember correctly. Problem was the fruit wasn’t ripe enough. Can’t recall any other problems (other than watermelon covered in my other posts).

I was a cooked high fat cooked vegan for a few months before the fruit thing. I’m open to the idea that it could have helped with the transition.

I more or less just took the plunge though.

It is trickier in the colder climates because finding ripe fruit is harder. You have to learn to time the ripening so you don’t run out of food and have ripe stuff all the time. Dates can help fill in those gaps. Hit up the grocery and produce places and ask them for overripe. Some places want to sell this stuff at lower prices since they are going to toss it anyway. It takes time to learn ripe fruit. Before long your nose will tell you what’s good. I tell people, “I want the stuff with flies on it” The flies know when it’s ripe

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Did you notice any negative symptoms with your transition to high carb from high fat? Did you just take the plunge- slash the fat and start crushin carbs? Before you moved to Hawaii, did you have any problems doing the high fruit in wintertime?

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Try soaking it for 2+ days. I bought a sack of white/brown blend the last time. Ate a whole pot (roughly 9 cups) of it the other night. Didn’t cause me to double over. I’m not sure if it was the increased soak time (usually only 24hr) or the fact it was a blend. Still, roughly 4.5c of it were brown. Last time I did 6c straight brown it didn’t serve me well.

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@Lee, I don’t think I can disagree with one word you wrote.

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I hate the safe starches concept.
Sure adding butter to white potatoes helps with their concept, but that doubles the coma inducing effect of potatoes as is.
Nothing makes me feel like a couch potato more than white potatoes and butter.

Tiny amount of safe starches ok, but fruit hyper restricted? How is stripped white rice better than a banana?

Fruit is the best carb source.

“We recommend that sedentary people eat about 400 to 600 carb calories per day.”

I love reading that… eat that low in carbs and a person will more than likely stay sedentary unless motivation can push them beyond their will.

I have seen a bit of the Rawbrahs, personally I have no idea what kind of thing they do, I can not stomach their style to find out.

I agree Grok. White rice works better than potatoes, seems to digest ok and give nearly fruit type energy. Brown rice destroys my gut.

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Wondering what you thought of Paul Jaminent’s latest post on the toxicity of hyperglycemia and how fat reduces it?

Here is the link : http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=4937

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I don’t think we should ban anything really, just educate Libertarian

@Razwell/Bucklefart/Chris or whatever other personality possesses your needs to be medicated soul. If you have all the answers and are so fucking smart, why don’t you spend your time gracing us all with this infinite wisdom in a book instead of trolling the internet with drivel 23hrs a day. If it’s all knowing, I’d buy it.

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Yep, veggie oils are equally crap as animal-source oils. Non-whole foods should be banned

Have you seen this?

Caldwell Esselstyn “No oil”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_o4YBQPKtQ

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I havent looked into it, but I’m sure white flour and veggie oils where introduced about the same time.

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That’s ok. I’ve heard some people (usually folk with symptoms of rheumatoid arthirisis)may be senstive to nightingale veggies (potatoes, tomatoes, eggplants). I personally love potatoes with mushrooms, especially with chantarelle’s.

I get you what you are saying with white-rice, it’s like a dope. Fiberless carbs, they go right in your system. But, not so healthy, they caused a big havoc in Asia, when polishing of rice was introduced in the 1950′s. Loads of previously unheard heart-issues thanks to B-6 deficit.

http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/the-tomato-effect/

I’ve been almost solely on starches, mostly due financial issues, and I am craving for fruits. Dates should always kept on a close vicinity.

“Are dates good for you”
http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/are-dates-good-for-you/

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#1 Fats (plant or animal)
#2 Animal products
#3 Potatoes a close third

Of course the bog down list doesn’t mean they are bad foods, just that they bog me down, so I minimize them.

Depending on the animal product, potatoes may even bog me down as much or more and sometimes give me heartburn etc… I’m a sucker for raw fish. Other than slowing digestion way down (and binding) and making me stink a bit if I eat a pound or more, I haven’t found any problems with it really.

I’ve pretty much embraced rice at this point. It came off the naughty list about 10 months ago, but more of a staple the last 3 months. White rice is my favorite. Brown is fine, but if I eat as much as I wan’t the extra fiber can cause stomach ache. I always soak my rice for 12-48 hours, and I almost always cook my starches in sea water anymore. Special thanks to the Kitava and a paper via my bud Chris Masterjohn for that tip.

I stick to starches (and veggies, and any fat) at night as much as I can due to the bog factor. White rice digests almost as well as fruit, and sometimes better if I’m stuck eating the unripe stuff. I can easily eat 2-3,000 calories of plain white rice in a sitting without blinking an eye. I more or less took last month off from exercise, ate maybe 50% of my daily calories (roughly 4k) in rice, and if anything got leaner.

Basically I eat as many ripe bananas as I have then fill in the gaps with rice. Add whatever else after that to round out the nutrition. Seems to be working well and is easier to implement than raw when life is tugging me in different directions. Pretty easy to keep a 20lb sack of rice in the cupboard. Also stretches the food budget.

That said, the closer I stick to raw foods, the better I feel. To a point anyway. Haven’t quite pinpointed that point yet. My raw vegan stints seem to last about two weeks at a time. Perhaps because I’m able to workout so hard during that time, I deficit and succumb to the caloric density of cooked food or stuff like the raw fish. This is along the lines of what DurianRider would say, and I tend to agree with it. If I kept dates around more often this wouldn’t happen. I wont be convinced that veganism is nutritionally superior, so these are nutrient replenishing moments I embrace Kind of like junk food days for the chronic dieter.

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The rawbrahs report eating 3000kals per day and competing in olympic swimming level trials. Phelps eats 13 000 kals per day. These idiots bro’s get low testosterone and blame it for their raw vegan diet….lol.

The reason I don’t do raw veganism is because with that kind of a diet my calory expenditure skyrockets, I don’t feel for eating 4000-5000kals per day (I am 6,05 foot, 67kgs). But I am not idiot to the extent of trying it (rawveganism) and then blaiming it afterwards for low testosterone after training like a mad-man.

3000kals from bananas does not equal 3000kals from potatoes/starches. I don’t why it this way, but it just is. Perhaps the body transforsm the cold foods to some kind of warm liquid which consumes energy, unless your food is warm already in the beginning.

I rather take it easy and pile +2600-3000kals from starches a day and feel perfectly fine rather than goin’ for 4500 kals from fruits which would be needed to feel equally fine.

Rawbrahs are just another Daniel Vitalis or David Wolfe, yo-yo’in to anything that is hip at the moment.

So, my advice is, promote fruits but make sure that fruit as base for calories is pretty much beyond the comprehension for many, I think people who are interested in this kind of lifestyle should be advised first to do the low-fat, starch-based McDougall thingy for a starter.

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If I want to be my best, I stick to eating mostly fruit. Not that the other foods are bad, it just boils down to them being supplementation. I know how I’ll respond to meat, fats, starches (bog down), so generally try not to eat them anytime when I know I’ll be doing exercise or heavy thinking (ie.. working, researching, studying).

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I am working my way into it by reducing added fat down to just a little butter if I fry eggs. Meat only if I actually want it and piling in the fruit.

Feels great, so abundant, feeling great.

Is it only you out there doing this sort of thing?

I follow DRider for the laughs and the fruit based info. Even the vegan stuff is great, balances out the MEATMEATMEATMEAT thing in the paleo blogs.

Anyone else?

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Consider this your one and only comment. I love alternative points of view, but unlike Denise on her blog, I’m not going to put up with your mindless drivel.

Congratulations, you “numba one!” You’re my first ban ever

@Heather, I need to write it first Which requires me re-reading it for accuracy. As you now know, it’s quite lengthy.

I record with Jimmy in about a week.

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I would like to read this!

I see you interviewed with him, as well. This oughta be good! My own interview with him is being released on Oct. 24. Nervous.

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Don’t have time to watch the video until later maybe (headed out for the day), but yes I did. A lot. A great deal of the reason I’m passionate about getting this info out. I don’t feel I was unhealthy eating an animal-based diet, but switching made my life a whole lot more enjoyable in many ways.

What’s the point of health if you can’t enjoy it? I refuse to just “exist” anymore if can can at all help it.

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Watch this video, 3,5min! Highly recommended
Improving mood through diet.
http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/improving-mood-through-diet/

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True, there’s tons of papers on this done by Anderson and scientist at the Pritikin center. Non-obese diabetics are off from the meds within few weeks on high-carb vegan diets.

When the intake of carbs (refined in this study) was increased from 45% (of total calories) to 85%, the condition of diabetic enhanced in every way. In practise to get carbs digits to 85% one had to eat vegan diet with no vegetable oils.

“An extremely high carbohydrate-fat ratio improves insulin sensitivity whereas more moderate changes (40-60% carbohydrate) produce less convincing results”

Smith U. Carbohydrates, fat, and insulin action. Am J Clin Nutr. 1994 Mar;59(3 Suppl):686S-689S.”

(Although pay attention that Smith does not recommend refined carbs and notices that diabetic would get even better results with high-carbo GI diets)

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I would hate this life.

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@Richard, Just try it. I’d put money on it that it works for you. If dogma keeps you from trying it, well then that’s your problem and really can’t objectively post on the subject.

I wont have time to read those last few for a few days, but the abstracts are a bit lame. Any study that says “meat eater” throws up a “eats anything” red flag for me. Once again a few variables can skew those results easily.

A few notes… Vegan men are likely to be less fat, exercise more because they at least are somewhat health conscious. Those are major factors in boner power. However, that’s only good to a point. Vegan men (especially low fat) are also known to have lower sex drive. Heavy endurance exercise which is praised in the vegan world is known for lowering T levels too. This is no secret

In 4 Hour Body Tim talks about using selenium to boost test levels and I believe sperm count. Maybe this is another nutrient vegans should keep an eye on.

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and what was the source of the test meat/egg subjects? The best highest quality least harm battery free pastured eggs? Or CAFO — unless you know the constituents of the quality of their study, it’s useless information. It’s shadowy and only proves that yeah — junk food and toxic sludge and low-nutrients are bad for you. Whoddathunk it?

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The low-fat vegans usually report increased activity down there. I am not an expert the hormone area, but atleast the popular wisdom tells that testosterone levels should be correlated with this area. It has been observed that Vegan men have 7-13% higher total testosterone levels as opposed to omnivores.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2400756

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10883675

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Yes you were metabolically deranged. The difference is… you not longer use that as an excuse to avoid carbs like all these other yo-yos.

Strict veganism… If it wets your whistle, have at it. I think it probably can be done long term, but I really don’t see the point. LFRV is pretty easy to mess up (long term). A lot of people will do more of a fruitarian thing, and thats where you can really accelerate problems IMO. Something closer to Doug Grahams approach would be more successful.

I’m fruit-based high-raw with a side of animal nutrients. Toss in some junk food when appropriate in social situations, knowing full well the consequences. That good enough for me. I like to live a little.

I’m still constantly testing. It’ll all probably be in the book whenever I manage to get the damn thing written.

@Richard, I guess I’m getting prostate cancer then. Toss a 1 raw egg into a LFRV diet at night, and watch your young self’s morning wood come back the next morning. This alone tells me that good things are happening with hormones when including a small about of eggs.

I’m not overly excited about red meat or poultry anymore. I never go out of my way to buy it. I bought a couple pounds of liver once in the last who knows how long, and ended up throwing it away.

@Daniel, if it works, your happy, and not stressing about food, look no further unless you’re goals change or something. That said, try slashing the fat for a while. It’s not a demon macro nutrient, but you don’t need to add it all the time. I really don’t miss it. About the only time I eat fat is avocado with rice/sushi, or whatever’s in the wild fish. There hasn’t been butter or any other processed fat in my fridge for a long time. Well, I guess I use a little coconut oil to keep things from sticking on a pan. When I say little, I mean little.

Starch pretty much is harmless, just as fructose in fruit is harmless. All that science is total bullshit except when talking about HFCS. Even then, Chris Masterjohn fed rats a 60% fructose diet for 9 weeks and they didn’t develop any fatty livers. I think they even lost weight. That said, I’m sure other inflammation was present. I think the combo of processed wheat and HFCS is very lethal. If I eat processed sugars I have lots of inflammation (knees & sinuses). When I was LFRV (and pretty close to it much of the time now) I have the lowest inflammation of any diet I’ve ever tried by a long shot! I couldn’t train 20+ hours a week if I didn’t.

Chew on this… Inclusion of dairy (raw or otherwise) takes me out of training in a finger snap. I can’t get on board with health benefits of regularly consuming dairy anymore as a result. With my consumption and exercise abuse, my body tells me pretty quick which foods are better than others.

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Anywho, I was also curious about your placement of fruits above starches- it seems there is surmounting evidence indicating that starch is in harmless, and there is still quite a bit of controversy with fructose. I’d like to hear your explanation.

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Low-carb makes more than just “someone” sedentary It make A LOT of people sedentary. 150 is a relevant number. Your little frame probably tolerates only getting 150 carbs. Good for you. If you fed me 150 carbs and 2,000 calories for more than a few days, I’ll be trying to chew your arm off.

Too keep the weight coming off as a low-carber, I had to drop cals down at one point to 700-1,200 or something like that. it was dumb. I’ve never had to go below about 2,500 when eating mostly carbs and it still comes off WAY faster and isn’t a dreadful existence.

Having an office job especially standing all day in no way means you need to eat low-carb. Personally, I think it means the opposite. I’ve done both those types of jobs my whole life.

I pretty much say in every video I make that “I know everyone doesn’t want to be an Ironman athlete.” I don’t want to either. I’m a lazy fuck. I do it because I don’t mind it, it gives me something to strive for, and it gets me off my lazy ass. If I had my way, I’d sit around and eat pizza while watching Discovery Network 24 hours a day and only take power naps.

@Go Kaleo says, “moving is pure joy with proper fuel.” Exactly. I can ride for 3 hours on practically no carbs at 60-70% HR and not bonk. The bullshitter low-carb experts would like you to believe this only happens with “fat adaptation”. What a crock of horse shit. If you want workouts to feel like, well… work, then eat less carbs. If you want to haul ass and smile while looking at the scenery eat however many you can.

I can get by on 350, but it doesn’t get me motivated. I’m simply existing and probably hungry. 750 and I have motivation. 1,000+ and I’m loving life. Workout or not.

I’ve done almost nothing for three weeks exercise wise. All I do is sit (or stand this last week). I’m still eating 4,000 cals a day mostly from carbs. Haven’t gained weight.

There’s a chance I’ll write a post about Jimmy Moore’s latest post. Low-carbers miss a good part of the puzzle. It so blatantly obvious it boggles my mind.

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I eat about 3000 calories a day.

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How many calories do you eat per day?

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Of course, we are all different, but if I were someone who extrapolated from my personal experience to apply to everyone else, I can see myself suspecting that people who say they don’t enjoy working out are actually improperly fueled, because in my experience, moving is pure joy with proper fuel. The body’s natural state of existence, if you will. I would never think something like that, though.

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You continue to say that low carbers feel like sloths. What is low carb to you then? If 4+ days out of the week I eat less than 150 grams of carbs a day and eat 2000-2500 calories but am energized, never tired, walk a lot and workout daily then I am a low carb sloth?

What is a sloth to you?

You say that low carb is what makes people sedentary. This is completely false. It can be true with someone but its not the general rule.

What about people that have an office job or any other job that requires them to sit or stand all day and then are in constant action while at home? Are they sloths?

I would love for you to define these terms. In general, what do they mean?

Not everyone wants to do a triathalon. I don’t. It’s not because I eat 100-150 or so grams of carbs a day. I just don’t have a passion like you do. I’d rathe go on a hike, golf, snorkel, lay out on the beach, relax, etc.

Eating lower carb is not the reason why I have a passion for these things. I just want you to clear up what you mean!

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What are your thoughts on strict veganism? I know you’re mostly plant based, but eat animal products once in a while. What do you think about long-term LFRV? Can it be done? If so, do you think most people could follow it?

@ Go Kaleo, “Eat real fucking food people.” EXACTLY!

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Although low-carb is better than junk food for sedentary, I’m not on board with sedentary people needing to eat low-carb. Actually, I’d mostly advise against it. IMO it keeps them sedentary. People shouldn’t be sedentary. They should turn off the damn TV for a while (Especially if they watch the news).

Low-carb is a tool, but I’d leave it in the box for special occasions anymore. It’s way overused. Everyone thinks they’re “metabolically deranged” these days. It’s like the go to catch phrase for low-carbers. Cracks me up. Atkins should start an ad blast… “Got Derangement?”

@Go Kaleo, yeah, I know

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“Eat real fucking food people.”

That’s all you really needed to write.

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I haven’t had a chance to read much of your blog yet but I have watched a few videos that you had posted. I completely agree with you that carbs aren’t necessarily bad and that it has more to do with the quality of the food than anything. From my understanding though, Paleo is not necessarily low carb but has more to do with food quality and it seems people within the community are starting to get this. When I first switched to Paleo over a year ago I was mostly low carb (under 50 grams a day) but I was also pretty sedentary, so this worked GREAT for me. I lost like 50 pounds pretty quickly with little exercise and no longer crashed and burned after eating and I had lower blood pressure. Once I started doing CrossFit style workouts I knew pretty quickly I’d have to up my carb intake or else I wouldn’t keep up. Now, on workout days I typically consume anywhere from 100 – 150 grams of carbs (usually from yams or fruit) a day, or close to 300 if I go on a long day hike or when mountain climbing. While I don’t think I’d thrive on a mostly plant based diet (tried vegetarianism for 4 years) I think it’s great that you’ve found a diet that works for you and think it’s great that you’re exposing some of the low carb myths. I think low carb can be beneficial for some folks, especially those who are more sedentary, and those who are metabolically deranged, but it doesn’t work for everyone and sure as hell isn’t sustainable in the long run. Thanks again for your insight.

Later!

Alan

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I eat a hell of a lot more carbs as part of my regular diet than I do if I eat pizzas. Are you saying my regular diet is junk food?

Junk food is carbs and fat but seems to be mostly carbs.

Don’t be so sure about that.

Back to your chart – where do veggies fit? Leafy greens? Asparagus?

Do you think of bell peppers, tomatoes and cucumbers as fruit?

Eat all of this stuff that you want. They aren’t significant carb or calorie foods, that’s why they’re not on the chart.

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I doubt I’ll read Wheat Belly. I already know wheat is shit. I rarely spend time reading stuff that reinforces what I already know. That said, I’m sure it’s a good read.

Fruit is a fantastic way to kick the junk. IMO the best way.

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I was emailing a lady back and forth just a few times a while ago. She just emailed me today and told me she had lost 18 lbs in just 5.5 weeks.

I suggested that she replace junk food with fruit. She needed to kick her junk food habit. The best way to kick a habit is to replace it with something else.

She said she eats fruit for breakfast.

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With that being said, a diabetic should eat less carbs then he or she already is. But, with this now being said, if one avoids all processed junk then he or she will automatically decrease his or her carb intake.

Grok,

Have you read wheat belly? If not, are you going to? I listened to the podcast with William Davis and Robb Wolf today. Pretty damn good. Seems like wheat is easily the main culprit. Robb said himself that if he was to give one piece of advise to anyone it would be to avoid wheat.

Seems very reasonable.

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I do have a post in cue that bashes on paleo a little bit, but for good reason I write these late at night usually, so I wait a few days now and then proofread and publish. I’ll probably put it up on Monday.

I have a guest post coming out soon (soon as I finish it) and will link to it here, then I’ll be on Jimmy Moore’s podcast the beginning of Dec.

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“Why can’t you vegan pussies stick to the facts instead of resorting to getting personal? It does NOTHING for your cause. I’ll tell you why, because you’ve got nothing but religion. It’s such a turnoff. I’ll murder an animal right in front of you in spite. How’s that for a turnoff?”

100% completely agree with you. I think vegans get a lot of shit right, but for the wrong reasons. I wish they saw that and amended the message. I love that the “paleo” world mostly seems to be getting the message.

But the fact that you aren’t blinded by some vegan religious dogma/paleo cultish dogma/low card fanaticism is why I find you extremely interesting and wish you wrote more often.

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I’m not completely on board with what you laid out as an overall approach, but as a one size can fit a lot… I don’t have problems with it and have no troubles believing it’s affective.

Guess I’m not on board with the Poliquin Principles carb rule either, except for smart timing, which can be very helpful. Mainly for recovering athletes.

If I was to do it all over again, I would not do an animal dominant or lower-carb approach. I really feel it set me back. I’m a little more pissed about it than I let on. That said, I guess I’m happy for the experience and that my health did improve leading me to better things allowing me to enjoy a new amazing life, surrounded by amazing people, a mind blowingly amazing girlfriend, in an amazing place, with amazing new business opportunities.

Can’t I get a “HURA!” for real food?

Thanks for stopping by

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Once an animal/fish dominant Paleo style diet has been utilized to regain control of your health and you are at a point where hormonal health is again functioning efficiently and effectively (ie: you are lean and have no / very few remaining health issues. (i believe Paleo is the fastest way to re-establish a healthier metabolism with those who have abused their bodies with processed/dead/nutritionally devoid diet)

As this happens, and insulin signaling returns to normal, you are then in prime position to move towards a higher carb lower fat type of diet. As you correctly pointed out (IMHO) a High Carb/High Fat diet doesnt work and will make you fatter however by reducing the fat consumption your body is able to function pretty well on a high carb (from paleo sources) type of diet with of course a dose of healthy fats and proteins. NB: success will probably depend a little on genetics & environmental demands as well.

Again i believe that this is most likely due to the body’s ability (or not) to be able to send the fuel to the muscles / fat / liver….ie: in a lean healthier person the fuel will be sent via insulin mainly to the muscle cells and in someone who is ‘fat’ most of the fuel goes to the fat cells. If you have been unhealthy or ‘fat’ then your body needs a certain amount of time to regenerate this ability through proper exercise, diet and lifestyle changes, my thought is around 6-12 months once you are lean – as this happens the body’s demand for carbohydrates will increase – especially pre/post exercise.

I generally follow Charles Poliquins Principles (strength and conditioning) and he suggests that if you are 10%+ body fat you follow the zero or very limited carb rule. If you are under 10% then carbs are your friend and tolerance is higher therefore tuck in using good timing as suggested by Nell in her blog.

Obviously everyone is different and as such has a different set of demands / goals /environment and genetics so for me its about finding the right fuel mix to match those demands.

As you also pointed out this will probably just happen if you make the right observations with what is happening with your body and what you are putting into it. I guess there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ way you just have to find your own ‘optimal’ way and be open to the fact that your body’s energy, macro and micro nutrient demands could change on a daily, seasonal or yearly basis, or not at all.

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Eating and drinking our way to health means finding a diet that satisfies our needs. This is a really good approach, and you got it right.

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You know exactly shit about Denise. Why can’t you vegan pussies stick to the facts instead of resorting to getting personal? It does NOTHING for your cause. I’ll tell you why, because you’ve got nothing but religion. It’s such a turnoff. I’ll murder an animal right in front of you in spite. How’s that for a turnoff?

“but that’s not your concern as long as people are filled by animals” And that bullshit was the conversation ender. Take that vegan drivel elsewhere. Come back when you start having health problems. Unlike vegans, we forgive.

I’d rather eat out my own asshole while shitting than listen to one word the UN says. Fucking goons. Lord knows they don’t have any agendas. Sheep listen to the UN. Hey, just thought of something… sheep are vegans U.N… LMFAO! About as stupid as the “Dietary Guidelines for Americans, which are the gold standard of nutrition guidance” I read today from the wheat goons.

Time for bed. This diet war shit puts me to sleep. Waste of perfectly good energy and glucose. So much anger today. Must be that one ounce of fish in my cheviche from eating out today. Oh wait? I’m so confused! Maybe it’s what the paleo zealots call “fruit rage” from the 20 bananas.

Is it any wonder the world is going to hell?

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P.P.S I don’t buy overpriced wild organic animal products. I kill them with my own hands or settle for what’s at the store. Since I’m not a fan of what’s in the store, I spend a lot of the time being a vegan eater. I have loosened up a bit since being in Hawaii since some of the seafood is wild caught fresh. At that point in becomes a money issue. $10 buys me 1lb of raw tuna, or 20lbs+ organic overripe bananas.

A lot of the beef here is grass-fed, but I pretty much could care less about beef.

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How you rubbed me the wrong way on Denise’s blog, is the same way that most vegan attackers do on her site… you say she’s pushing animals products. She’s not. Also the making of assumptions about her. Denise provides breakdowns of the holes in the vegan propaganda gospel (AKA China Study) for only one reason… BAD SCIENCE. The China Study [is] debunked, but thank you Dr. Campbell for the data. It’s still useful, as Denise found it really points a lot of problematic fingers towards wheat. Wheat IMO, is a much more likely candidate as a disease promoter in humans than animal products, which have been in our diets and primate relatives at some level for millions of years.

You can see by about my last 15 posts on this site that I have no problems believing a plant-based diet is potentially the healthiest of diets. I eat one. A low-fat one at that. I’ve never felt better. Plant based does not mean animal-free, unless of course you’re a vegan zealot.

“Base n. : the bottom of something considered as its support.”

Although I don’t feel saturated fat and cholesterol are solely responsible for heart disease, I also don’t have a problem believing a diets low in both may be among the healthiest options. I think there’s a decent enough track record for that.

“Eat plants” I agree. Promote plant heavy diets I agree. Fear-mongering all animal products at any level for an agenda is where things get wacko. Not much different than low-carbers fear-mongering carbs as the root of all disease. These positions are almost hysterical.

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here’s a good video for all the cavemen. Good topic for a thread starter.

Nathaniel Dominy, biologist and physical anthropologist from Dartmouth telling all about optimal diet for humans from the evolutionary perspective. I tell you, this ain’t no half-fat personal trainer (ala Loren Cordain) talking about how animal protein keeps you lean. This guy, Dominy has conducted extensive research on hunter gatherers in Uganda and parts of Asia, the paper should come soon.

http://www.youtube.com/user/drmcdougallmd#p/u/5/h0PF5R0ywp4

Now, what was the fuss with second half of my post?

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http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/

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That’s good I’m trying to ease up on killing people. Need to save my rage for the apocalypse next year. As soon as the gov and bankers drive us into poverty and eating rats, I’ll become an angry low-carber again

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I’m cool with you dude – no worries.

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P.S. If you ever tried to kick me in the balls, I’d break you in half

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But you’re right Brian. All my “bullshit” hasn’t come from a scientific study funded by a super-corp which was then regurgitated by a guru. However my sub-par results on “paleo” did. Now go away and get back to fingering your favorite guru’s asshole.

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I don’t do caffeine at all. Slightly tragic, since I live in Kona and they have the best coffee in the world here. I have eaten a few coffee cherries and spit out the bean

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If you don’t know this book, secure a copy. You’ll get a kick out of it.

pomophile, fruit hunter, Hawaiian ultraexotic, laughing at ex-lax: something in this book will spark ideas for a new online identity.

(I’ve decided to still drink a bit of coffee in the early morning, by the way: after all, it’s a fruit!)

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I’ve started incorporating more fruits into my primal diet. I’ve NEVER enjoyed strawberries, black berries, blue berries or raspberries before going primal. Now I make a whipped cream from scratch (1/2 cup heavy cream + 1 tsp sugar + couple drops of vanilla extract) , drop in the fruit and have to fight my wife off with a spoon from sharing. I know the sugar isn’t primal but it does get brownie points when I share the fruit.

Apples always gave me a sugar rush and itchy mouth. Now I add a boatload of almond butter and no issues.

Keep up the great work.

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All that said, I mostly do starch for variety. Compared to fruit, it really slows me and my exercise recovery down a lot.

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I went paleo mainly because of skin issues (acne) and it definitely got better.

Now with all the fruits in the summer and my very small protein intake my skin looks even better. Redness went away and puffiness is gone!

I hope it stays that way.

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Fruit vegans are kind of known for having good skin, which I believe these days. Fruit and juice “fasts” claim to fame is “detoxing” shit out of the body, so it doesn’t much surprise me that someone eating all fruit would.

Sorry, no good ideas really without a food log. You still doing dairy and things like that?

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Minute 20:25 of my podcast with Hank I talked about Veganism.

Keep up the good fight. I saw a pod of dolphins when I was out swimming about a month ago. They were really cool and I was headed out to swim with them, but glad I didn’t. I talked to a local scuba diver and he said that’s exactly the spot two 14′ & 15′ Tiger sharks live. He’s actually seen them swimming with the dolphins.

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You clearly have great success on yourself and with clients. Can’t argue with that. I just have a different approach which I haven’t outlined yet and probably wont be able to until I put out a book. Think “Teach a man to fish.” I feel it’ll offers less complexity and a little more flexibility. Once applied, many people may very well land right where you’d put them without even thinking about it. However, I also want to try and reach others (like myself) who won’t fit into a mold without a great deal of effort.

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“LMAO” ~Me

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Here’s a recent post I did on that very subject!

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That coconut butter is crack in a bottle. I had to quit buying it back in the day. Usually ate half a jar in the car before I even got home.

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Berries and fruit also have wonderful body fat burning, blood lipid tidying, properties, irrespective of calorie density/quantity- courtesy of their flavonoids.

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No more breakage. The variable speed knob kicks butt.

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Agree 100%.

This actually made me laugh out loud. Funniest thing I’ve read all day…

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Hank, you can find lots of great fruit smoothie recipes on my website. In all the years I’ve been drinking smoothies for breakfast, I’ve never tired of them, because there are sooooooooo many different fruits to experiment with. Now I can’t imagine starting my day without one.

My recipes don’t have added milks, ice creams, sugars, powders, sorbets or anything like that. Just real fruit:

I am in eternal envy of Grok, who is able to enjoy all kinds of amazing exotic tropical fruits over there in Hawaii…

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@Shane, I feel your pain brother Shane. Yep it works. The other problem is those diets are often just that… diets. Hypocaloric comes along with it. Slowed metabolism then makes it easy to add it back and then some. Low fat palatability is where fruit is the unsung hero! When’s the last time you had to butter and salt a piece of fruit or melon to make it taste good?

@Toad, not a lot of sympathy from me. You weigh about half as much as many of my readers, so probably not much from them either. Here’s a tip if you want to gain weight as an ectomorph… OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND EAT MORE! You’re making it way too complicated. Quit experimenting with fat loss protocols.

@Heather, just the idea of an animal-based diet is nauseating to me now. If for nothing else, from a digestion standpoint. I almost feel like I was duped into doing it. More power to the people who feel that animal-based is optimal for them; it may be for some/many. In my heart though, I feel that group of “optimal” people is very much the minority. Most probably just don’t know better. Kind of what I was subtly hinting in the last part of this post.

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Grok, just found this quote on the effects of high fat diets from Don Matesz on his blog. Found it really interesting:

“One of the challenges I had with meat-based, low-carb paleo revolved around how to get 2500 calories daily without eating above 25% carbohydrate. The nub for me involved the nausea and appetite loss that I would get whenever eating a large amount of fat.

Sometimes I would get such bloating and discomfort from high fat meals that I would be unable to eat much but fruit and juice for a couple of days, completely negating the temporary increased caloric intake I got from the extra fat.

This is an accepted effect of high fat meals (even Peter at Hyperlipid mentions it fairly often), not unique to me, which some might consider a benefit for people trying to limit energy intake, but it is certainly undesirable when it prevents adequate energy intake.

At one point I decided to try drinking milk to fill in the calorie gap, adopting a ‘pastoral’ diet, despite my previous experience that milk increased my sinus congestion and allergy difficulties, hoping that in the context of a grain-free diet, milk would have a different effect on me. Alas, it did not.”

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I’ve been eating a bit more fruit too and have eaten it alone for the most part. I enjoyed 3 bananas yesterday.

I have actually lost 3 lbs in the past 2 weeks…. however, I do NOT want to lose weight. I went from 147 to 144. Unless the scale at the Y is off which is possible…

I am going to try and get up to 150. I just want to see if I do it. It would be nice if it was 6 lbs of muscle but 3 fat and 3 muscle is fine with me too. I’ll be experimenting with different combos of food. I may go VLC for a few days and then HC for a few days.

I just want to get to 150. My digestion continues to get back to normal.

The most important health factor I need to work on right now is sleep. I’ve been sleeping at my bros place and sleep well but get less than 7 a night which is not enough for me.

Life is a continuous experiment.

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That said, the diet & exercise plan did work and I was able to put on muscle and lose fat. But I hated it with a passion and after that 6 month diet, I quit and got fat.

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I have started eating a good portion of fruit in the morning and at lunch, typically frozen banana, frozen pineapple, strawberries, mango and peach in the blender. I now typically have my protein and fat heavy meal in the early evening.

My workout recovery has been phenomenal. Instead of gaining weight, which I was sure would happen, I have leaned out more. My weight is still about the same, but dropped an inch from my waist and my pushups and pullups have not suffered.

I guess we have to not be scared to try new things and actually give them time to see if it is working.

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@Shanta, not necessarily bad for all people, but I have to generalize a little bit. On the whole… “No” on the fat/carb combo. Starches are a very effective calorie vehicle. Just like Shane’s fruit and cream combos (can you say melted ice cream?), the carbs/fat combos are easy to put in lots of calories. Good for high volume athletes, bad for overweight people. People with weight gain problems should stay away from those combos or at least keep an eye on them.

Keep this in mind… Junk food is a combo of carbs, fat, and salt. Yams, GF butter, and sea salt might be a much better combo than a heat lamp food from a Minute-Mart, but it’s going to have the same effect on weight gain.

Here’s a test… make a bowl of mashed potatoes and weight it. Butter up, sour cream, and salt it or whatever like you normally would keeping track of how much fat you add too. Eat to your satisfaction and then weigh it again. Tally up the calories you ate.

The next day make plain potatoes, do the weight thing, eat, and tally up the calories.

Here’s what happens. The fat makes it so much more palatable, you eat more than you normally would, plus you have the extra added calories from the fat on top of that.

Bodybuilders (fitness competitors) have done this for a long time. Bland meals, low-fat carbs (oats & brown rice) and very lean protein. Not saying this is healthy, just trying to show another example. Almost nobody overeats boring food, except me

I know it sounds like I’m demonizing fat, but I’m not. Think of it as moderation. You’ll see how much moderation American’s don’t exercise if you ever have guests from Europe over for dinner. LOL

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So yah, my yam is buttered. My fruit is typically in full fat yogourt or breakfast smoothie (made with fats like coconut cream/whip cream, etc.).

Granted, this yam & extra serving of fruit comes on top of 1 serving of fruit and low/moderate carb intake via veggies, yogourt, whole milk etc. each day. Using a calorie tracker on an average day, I get 15% carb, 56% fat, 29% protein BEFORE adding in my extra fruit & starch last month. Like I said, I don’t *really* track calories, only track a day once in a while. So maybe I ate more calories overall and that is solely the cause of the weight gain?

Or maybe it’s that high fat, moderate protein & low carb easily works for me without any measuring. Maybe if I was meticulous in calorie counting I could eat a more “balanced” diet higher in “safe” carbs? Or maybe 8/1/1 would work too? I won’t discount it, though not sure I’ll ever try it. I’m sure by now my family thinks I have an eating disorder already. Tried vegetarian for a couple weeks last year, then vegan for a bit longer than that, then a “balanced” diet, then something closer to “paleo”. Good thing my wife loves me and I do all the cooking.

I dropped the extra fruit (typically a banana, though there were mangoes involved too) & starches with dinner (yams mostly) and have lost nearly all the fat in the last two weeks. With no real change in energy output (same 1 workout a week, still have decent progress in the gym too).

That extra fruit & starch is only about 250ish calories a day. I’m sure if I had a higher activity level I could eat it easily. But I’m a computer guy who’s stuck behind 3 screens daily for at least 10 hours. Which also explains why I type so much in your comments here, sorry.

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Very small eaters, naturally thin, or athletes can fudge this,

Half a yam or a serving of fruit at dinner is not very many calories. I’m going to assume you’ve got quite a bit of fat in the mix. A couple yams, no added fat, a smaller serving of meat, and a pretty good chance you’d see a different result.

If you were keto before you started adding back the carbs, it’s a very good chance some or all of that weight is increased glycogen levels. In myself, this very much looks like belly fat.

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Interesting post. I’ve never tried 8/1/1, but just adding an extra serving of fruit and eating a moderate amount of safe carbs with dinner (half a yam, etc.) has me carrying an extra 8 pounds of belly fat after just one month. Everyone is different I guess. I don’t meticulously track calories but I have done a couple of days of tracking and my overall calorie intake last month was no higher than before.

I only lift weights, no cardio (go for walks, but that’s not exercise even if I live on a mountain), but I find my energy levels are pretty awesome when in the gym. Even my mornings I’m able to function without my coffee and prior to changing my diet to something resembling paleo, I was that zombie dude in the morning till I had a couple cups of coffee in me.

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But seriously … from what I have seen, Doug G. is extremely fit, impressively so for his age … and the wrinkled appearance seems, to me, to be related to consistent, regular, unprotected time in the sun.

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#1 very bad style! (big one)
#2 sun worshiping (a big one)
#3 genetics
#4 work stress
#5 oxidative stress from ultra exercise (Doug)
#6 too many years at too low body fat.

Doug doesn’t look bad all the time. This one he does for sure. I have videos where I look so horrible I almost didn’t put them up. Some people just do not look good on camera, and I know not so good looking people who look great. I’ll give Doug the benefit of the doubt because the camera can exaggerate imperfections immensely (like eye circles and face redness in my case).

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What I have been wondering is – why do he and Rozalind Graham (wife) look so much older than their years? If you see photos of Doug from just 10 years ago, he looks sooooo much younger. He has aged considerably over the last decade, and it’s been approximately 11 or 12 years that he’s been eating exclusively, 100% raw vegan with no cheats (according to him).

Doug is my mother’s age and my mother actually looks younger than him, and much younger than his wife. My mom has been a SAD eater and chronic dieter her whole life. She’s always popping diet pills or following some low calorie regimen or another.

Rozalind is only in her forties! Eek! What happened?

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=768654477

Absolutely, prolonged low carb dieting can age you quickly, but prolonged LFRV doesn’t appear to promise much better (as far as appearances go)…

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You can see in that graph, my minerals were all doing quite well.

I’m not much on supplementation, but it has a place just like pharma medicine. I prefer to address the root of problems with whole foods. The end of Matt’s AHS speech kind of touched on this when he was talking about anti-nutrients. We really don’t have much of a clue as to how nutrients work in the whole scheme of things of whole foods yet, and concentrated nutrients can be harmful in themselves.

The vegans are pretty good about promoting sunshine, and some like Durianrider might be good at converting A. Not sure where K2 fits into the scheme of things with that diet (haven’t look into it yet), but this may explain why some advocates haven’t had teeth problems like others.

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Excess calcium could also be problematic in terms of calcified arterial plaques and calcification in joint tissues.

Most people probably get too much calcium, and not enough magnesium, if anything – take some Mg Citrate. Just my two cents.

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Most of the people on the banana site don’t lift heavy things, and many have a history of anorexia vs paleo crowd’s history of obesity. Obese people have a bunch of muscle much of the time once you peel away the fat. Also lifting heavy is encouraged in paleo.

If you’re not doing raw dairy, I would quit. You will breath better. Personally I’m not overly worried about calcium, but if it’s a concern of yours, I can’t see too much wrong with any supplement as long as you’re not using it to cheat your way to nutrition (ie.. sub par diet). Calcium can be gotten from lots of greens, as well as other minerals.

Here are some charts from a stretch of low-fat raw vegan. You’ll see the calcium is a little low, but the diet is also low in potentially calcium leaching foods. I could have easily adjusted to raise it.
http://castlegrok.com/absurdity-of-nutrient-nitpicking/

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I’m definitely considering dropping dairy but I was wondering do you take a calcium supplement or are you not worried about getting calcium?

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Not sure when, but I will be going to hawaii soon. If you want to be one of my tour guides I’m all for it.

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I’m very much on board with Stephan’s position about keeping food simple to reduce food reward. I’ve practiced this for years, and bodybuilders have been doing it forever. At some point I’ll have to get around to reading his series on the subject. Probably haven’t, because I’m already convinced.

I’m also very on board with (and practice) what he wrote about Dr. Michel Cabanac. I will be looking into him as well.

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Plant-based. More like Vegetarian with a side of nutrient dense animal products. High-carb lower-fat is where most the resistance I get stems from. “He can eat carbs because he exercises all the time” is what I hear a lot. Funny enough, that’s not even why I started eating carbs. I was heavily sold on the benefits of the whole “fat adapted” thing. In the future I will go a lot more heavily into all this.

Although we have a much longer history with fruit therefor making it the actual paleo carb source, I’ve also undemonized neolithic but very much “ancestral” (as outlined by Chris Masterjohn here) foods like rice and sweet potatoes. I prepare these traditionally (more later) to reduce or eliminate the anti-nutrients in them.

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There was a lot of noise on #ahs11, and that one seemed to form after we had already organized our live-tweeting with our respective followers and readership. So I stuck with #pmatahs for consistency.

The overall amount of followers on our hash tag might have been lower, but I think the signal-to-noise ratio was higher, with the tweets being far more focused on session content, rather than social happenings.

Thankfully, the Internet is forever, so people can easily look back and reference information as needed, like you mentioned.

I do remember seeing one of your tweets with that tag. It was a good one. Also remember being disappointed that it didn’t have the #AHS11 tag so people would see it, but what you said makes sense.

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If the AHS11 tweets are still available for a while after the videos come out, I may do a blog post highlighting some some of the gross misinterpretations. Undecided. Not sure if I’m digging the hole deeper by trying to explain or not. I’d really like to move on from all this and focus the energy on what’s more important (the big picture). I’m not really a look back kinda guy. Left that back with my industrial diet and depression.

Interesting. Richard totally edited this post and his comments to me.

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As much as I could make possible, my Tweets were actual quotes from the presenters during their session.

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Funny enough, most of these could have fit in Tweets

Thank you for the support! Didn’t realize I’d get so many messages. Due to the support I’ve recieved, I’ll consider compiling all my future comments and things I write on on the web into posts on this site. I will also continue to post pictures of life and food (ie.. junk food transparency) on twitpic. This can be done without twitter open burning up my time, allowing me to be gone from there, but not forgotten. Keep you guys updated on my insignificant life.

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Fantastic quote sent to me by Michael:

“Absorb what is useful, Discard what is not, Add what is uniquely your own” ~ Bruce Lee

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Brother Grok, I do hope that you will be back and with a vengeance. I do understand how things can be taken out of context of not totally understood. I appreciate the fact that you have challenged me to always question what I am doing and make sure that my plan of action is the one that is actually working instead of me just hoping that it is working. Keep the faith and keep putting YOUR story out there no matter what people say.

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The guy is putting me to sleep, but I’ll keep listening. All the soy talk is pretty off putting. Soy is shit. I’m sure there’ll be some information in there worth cherry picking though, so I’ll keep listening. All this flax talk sounds a bit like http://bit.ly/nzm7wr

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Yes, I watch that stuff back then.
Yes, I have flipped my food pyramid.
Yes, it did cost an assload of money until I found fruit to base calories.
I still don’t give two shits about vegan propaganda.
No, I don’t believe eating wild animals is going to cause pandemics.
No, consuming some animal products is not going to cause cancer.
No, I don’t preach Durianrider, but I do preach higher carb diet. I’ve found fruit to be the best carb source as had DR.

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Your youtube link was broken, so I replaced the link.

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Are you preaching durianrider now(in 2011???)

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Did you ever watch http://tinyurl.com/drgregercomplete (watch for 12.5 hrs)?

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Exactly the kind of comments I’ve come to expect from skinny 17 year olds in their Mom’s basement who think the paleo diet is going to make them “diesel.”

Obviously you didn’t listen to the podcast or read the show notes. Go back to jerking off to “Good Calories, Bad Calories” now. Think of this while you are… those happy page sticking endings to every chapter are composed of fructose

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I had an electrolyte imbalance last week from drinking too much water during hot long exercise and not getting enough sodium. Blowing into the toilet one night with both ends exacerbated problems further. That week I was plagued with random panic attacks. One of which happened 1/8 mile into an ocean swim. Fuck that! After I didn’t drown, I pedaled my ass to the store and bought 1/2 gallon of Gatorade, some salty marinara sauce and a mineral supp. Sucked that down. Few days later I seem to be doing well.

My point is, I was messed up and processed crap was the fastest way to get me well. Doing what needs to be done sometimes is a lot less harmful than being dogmatic and dragging things along. Wasn’t the fault of the diet, I just hadn’t made the adjustments necessary to compensate for my added electrolyte needs.

Pregnancy would be similar. There’s going to be different needs since you’re feeding two people. One a developing brain. Not saying it can’t be done as a vegan, but is dietary dogma worth possibly having a jacked up kid if you didn’t meet the required needs?

@Toad, You should be a fan of drugs and viagra then too. World is obsessed with those as well. Had you focused on a dick grow book instead of smoothies, you’d be a rich guy

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I did not watch the video but read the post and read all the comments…

I am enjoying your thoughts Grok (what is your real name by the way?). It is making me become more open minded.

Because I live in MIchigan I tend to eat a lot more fruit in the summer. I mean, its locally grown here and thus incredibly fresh. I just picked some berries on Friday and have been eating a lot throughout the day.

I also love bananas because they are great for smoothies.

I do not personally count carbs, protein or fat. I eat whole, real food. Paleo food. I don’t do dairy except for butter and whey (for smoothies!).

I am a fan of bacon because the world is obsessed about it. When I post anything about bacon on my facebook wall it gets a dozen likes within 2minutes. Its crazy!

If I eat sugar on top a lot of fat and protein then I have some gas issues. If I don’t eat much then I can combine them fairy easily.

Many paleo newbies will substitute almond flour for wheat flour. I have thought this was a huge mistake right from the very beginning. Nuts have the same properties of grains. They only difference is the fat and carb content really! Wheat has gluten but nuts have MORE phytic acid!

I personally feel almonds tearing up my gut after just 8 or so! Raw almonds that is. I do better with blanched almonds.

I could go on and on… I’ll stop here and will chime in on your next post.

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P.S. Insomnia and poor sleep are some of the worst side effects of chronic caffeine use (to me the absolute worst is that so-tired-I-feel-sick crash in the afternoon). Say bye bye to these and hello to deep, restful sleep and productive, alert afternoon hours. Wooo hooo!

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This morning instead of my usual pot of French Roast I had a cup of green tea and an all-fruit breakfast. I dearly love the coffee, but the toll on my body is too much. I plan to replace coffee with something else I’m keen on upon awakening, like ripe mango or pineapple. No headaches today w/o the Joe. I’m trying to recall how I experienced the world B.C. (before coffee), and I want to get back to that place.

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Sleep, like overtime, is hard work, but the only way to get back what you’ve lost to the caffeine debt. How many alcoholics taper their consumption and quit?.. They don’t. Taper/limit if you need, but turn off the computer and do what really needs to be done. If you can’t, start making different lifestyle decisions so that you can. The hours spent reading that book at night, could be spent sleeping.

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Sounds like you’re eating about 1/16 of the fat most paleo people do. The low-carbers need to drop the pride and realize it’s time to move on. Low-carb is a tool, not a lifestyle. I love imagining eating those greasy meatza things, but don’t imagine feeling like tacking anything but the couch afterward

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I used to be one of those people who literally would be unable to function without my morning cup of coffee. If for some reason I was deprived of this, I would quickly succumb to extreme disorientation and then a migraine headache. I was seriously, seriously addicted.

Thanks to Cherniske’s book, I was able to break my caffeine addiction within a couple of weeks – he provides a pain free formula for weaning yourself off, and I followed this formula with great success. I would not recommend cold turkey (sorry Grok) – only a couple of hours of that hell, and I would have run screaming right back to coffee.

Now, going into this weaning off process, I was expecting to be a very unhappy, lethargic mess. I believed that decreasing the amount of caffeine I was intaking would result automatically in fatigue and brain fog. I was anticipating the whole process being a miserable experience.

My, my, my, how wrong I was. Miraculously, I watched as my energy actually INCREASED the less caffeine I drank. The further I moved away from that addiction, the more alive and energetic I felt.

I realized, for example, that the horrible crashes I would endure every afternoon, when I would become tired to the point of actually feeling ill and become desperate for a nap, were actually directly caused by my caffeine addiction. You know those energy drink commercials, showing those office workers becoming dead tired and drag ass in the afternoon? THAT, my friend, is caffeine addiction. A normal, healthy person does not endure that sickening afternoon energy crash.

I left the coffee habit behind and have not regretted it for a moment. I’ve given up a lot of harmful substances in my life: refined sugar, booze, drugs, smoking, white flour, refined carbs, gluten foods, cheese, and I can say with confidence that none of them had the profound effect on my day to day energy levels and sense of well being like giving up caffeine.

Ditching the coffee habit REVOLUTIONIZED my life and I can’t highly recommend it enough. You don’t realize until it’s over and done how much of a grip it has over your life and health.

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I look around at people in the paleo community and see so many low carbers that are pudgy. They are proud of the weight they have lost, but they have definitely stalled. The tribe of former raw vegans I hang with is so much healthier looking and definitely have different eating habits. I still lapse into raw vegan eating all the time. I eat just fruit for lunch a lot. I can’t imagine eating the cheesy bacon meatza things so many low carbers eat. I do often eat carbs with fat though and have never noticed a problem. I don’t add as much fat as some paleo folks do though. I do though a can of coconut cream a month and a pack of butter every two months and eat mainly pastured goat and lamb. I never throw out the fat from that though.

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First throw everything you know about eating fruit out the window. Eat it until you’re satisfied and do not stop until then. If that means 20 [insert fruit] or bananas in a sitting… so be it! If you crave junk (calorically dense foods) chances are you didn’t eat enough or your fruit wasn’t ripe enough. Don’t limit yourself. Big bodies need big calories. As the weight comes off, the calorie requirements will go down as well. If you’re very overweight, just walking is like doing weighted lunges. If I did lunges all day, I’d need more calories too

Second read Doug Grahams 80/10/10. Tender greens play a large role in his plan. They are especially important for some people. Females seem to crave/need them and veggies more than males from my perception.

Not going to recommend 80/10/10 (especially 100% vegan) as the end all be all diet, but it’s a great starting point.

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One of my favorites was coconut flakes, berries, and nuts with raw milk or a faux milk. Usually pushed me over the consumption deep end once those berry carbs hit my lips. Here are some shots:

http://twitpic.com/i3zgv
http://twitpic.com/i57ia
http://twitpic.com/i3wq4
http://twitpic.com/hsiil
http://twitpic.com/hjyci
http://twitpic.com/hjl48
http://twitpic.com/gjcp0
http://twitpic.com/fyetc
http://twitpic.com/ac9ew
http://twitpic.com/9tfmi
http://twitpic.com/953me
http://twitpic.com/8mbsn
http://twitpic.com/75alc

Most of the stuff was local, hand picked, farm direct, or made by my own hands. Usually added cinnamon for “blood sugar control.” Haven’t used cinnamon, or added fats for a year now. Oddly enough I don’t have carbo crashes or corresponding weight gain.

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@Sharky, Withdrawals, no. Wishing I had it sometimes… took a month maybe to get rid of “one of those days.” Just sack up, quit cold turkey and make sure you’re sleeping enough and lots of sweet fruit carbs for your energy. Caffeine is bad news that’s played down. A debt system. Once you’ve maxed out your caffeine cards (adrenals) you’re fuct. I know as well as any, with caffeine consumption that high, your clock is ticking. I was energy drink drinker for a few years (hell on teeth). Once paleo for a while, I was driven into caffeine via LOTS of tea and eventually pure caffeine anhydrous after that wasn’t enough.

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in my experience, barefooting is beneficial as a supplemental–jogging/strides on grass following a workout–but lightweight shoes are essential for optimal performance.

a question re caffeine: you say you gave it up cold turkey, any withdrawal symptoms? I’m habituated to high caffeine, probably in the range of 800-1000 mg/day in coffee, and want to ratchet that down. advice?

thanks

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I now fail to break the connection between a diet that helps you recover faster from extreme exercise stress and a similar designed one for everyday life. Life is nothing but stress! Everyone deserves a diet for the best possible recovery so they can tackle the next day. Whatever that may bring.

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@Hanlie, Perfect. 811 is a great place to start. For me, it’s simple… if you’re honestly following things (eating enough, truly ripe fruits, variety, etc..) to the letter and stop feeling less than “the best in your whole life” test/tweak until YOU DO start feeling the best in your whole life again. I like the idea of you remaining flexible with your salads at work. As long as you’re getting in enough calories and carbs to make you satisfied and happy, that’s the main point. Don’t try and restrict. It ONLY leads to the land of calorie dense junk.

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I might add some whole rice to my salad lunches I take to work, especially in the beginning, but I agree with you that starches are actually not that ideal. They need to be flavored with something to make them palatable, and that something is often fat.

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Chris

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Fruits have a wide variety of vitamins, are very juicy and delicious on their own, satiating (reason many people use them as snacks), and as woo-woo as it may sound to some, I really feel there’s something to the whole “raw food” thing and bio availability of nutrients in foods consumed in their fresh whole unheated state.

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Robby Barbaro is also a dietetic who manages his diabetes T1 with a fruit based diet and has information on both types.

In full disclosure, I have not read much from any of these people, and therefor am not endorsing them. Most are vegans. Some people may turn their nose up to the thought of Vegans, but if someone could have reversed my health, I wouldn’t have cared if they were a vegan from outer space. Would you?

Anyone looking to watch a plant-based weight loss story unfold… this one should be interesting: Johnny “O” goes Vegan

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If you have any adrenal issues, stay away from the caffeine and tea. Just remember, you don’t have to settle for feeling sub-par! Tweak away until you feel like superman

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I am not a low carber. I am just moderate. I eat moderate amounts of all three components. Protein around 80-100gms. Carbs around 200gms. Fat around 150gms.

I cannot go the cycling route my office is 30Kms away and there are no bicycle routes. I live in India. The traffic is not fast but is erratic. I would fear using a motorcycle everyday.

2hours in car one way means there is little time left to do anything else. Yeah I should move somewhere near.

The only exercise I get is some weight lifting a couple of times a week.

I have a low adrenal issue, and anything that acts too fast, causes is to overreact. Kettlebells are the nemesis. I do it in the morning and I can’t sleep in the night after 15 hours. The same thing happens if I drink a strong coffee afternoon.

I do eat some rice, though it causes me to lose control, and can give me gas. Not the best digestive system I have. My main method of rice consumption is idly/dosa/uttapam. The fermented rice/lentil cakes/crepes/pancakes.

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It’s like low-carb (less than few 100) and more animal foods are the savor of man and all his medical problems. I want to show that there’s more than one way to skin a cat (not a vegan term) and sometimes the different way might be superior. The example above being controlled/eliminated blood sugar issues and superior fat loss done via high-carb or even uber-high-carb.

Don’t think for a second that you have to be an active person to start thriving on fruit or a lot of carbs. That’s a total myth and you wont know until you given it a honest shot. It may not be the perfect thing for you, but your can’t write it off like that. High-carb may MAKE you active or even improve your work performance. When I’m staring at code, http://twitpic.com/4eelz7 I chew through bananas. You don’t have to sit on your ass all day either. Where there’s a will, there’s a way. Start cycling to work. Sometimes that was the only way I’d get any exercise. Get an exercise bike and ride it for a bit while watching TV. Swing a kettlebell for two minutes before dinner. There really is no excuse. Eating low-carb I could barely muster my way out of my chair away from code.

I’ve gone stints of months eating fruit while exercising almost zero.

As far as my rice intake… I’m always experimenting. I’ve eaten a ton (not literally but like 20lbs in the last few weeks) to no ill affects. I’m going to stop eating rice again (inferior to fruit), but I no longer fear it’s consumption. I’m curious to test oats as well, but they were the last food I was almost living on before paleo and I had inflammation issues. They aren’t particularly tasty not covered in sugar/fat etc.. so I probably wont go there. I don’t want to disrupt my training.

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Me I am a sedentary software engineer. Have to sit on my ass the whole day. I have to find a way to get a standing desk, but that is not easily accomplished.

It is good to see that the paleo community is becoming more understanding of varied requirements. But it still is paleo. You are still paleo unless you have started to eat a lot of rice .

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Problem is “healthy fats” have been praised & touted so much they’re being supplemented. People more recently have been adding back in the carbs with the fats still heavily present.

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“How do food manufactures get junk food to taste good? Add fat and salt. How do you get paleo food to taste good? Add fat and salt. Easiest way to overeat carbohydrate foods and get fat? Add fat and salt.”

The entire “paleo community” isn’t hung up on high fat. That’s a tough argument to make considering Cordain and DeVany explicitly recommend against excessive fats. Some of the paleo community is hung up on high fat. But some of the proponents of high fat are openly not really paleo. That said, I’m not sure that Melissa (etc.) recommends fats with carbs. It’s also sometimes hard to tell who’s paleo and who’s a proponent of WAPF or whatever.

DeVany also explicitly recommends against combining carbs and fats in the same meal. Others may as well.

As far as I can tell, the idea to eat extra fat with carbs comes from the glycemic index people — these being the same idiots who recommend agave syrup for diabetics.

If we’re talking about paleo as a logical framework, it makes perfect sense that protein and fat would have been eaten together over evolutionary time, and that starches and fruits would often have been eaten separately (at different times of the day and/or in different seasons). But… it’s still possible for those in the paleo community to be absolutely right about the benefits of high fat when it’s combined with protein/veg rather than starch/fruit, and for your point to stand. Your post seems to lump all high fat recommendations into the same category, which I don’t think is an accurate representation.

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Dietary fructose doesn’t mean elevated trigs (vid). I’m not advocating agave nectar shots, low-fat salad dressing, Wonka candies, and oatmeal with brown sugar ate every meal. If somebody else wants to pay for them, I’ll put up my blood tests. I eat high fructose fruits all day long.

Diabetic in 6 hours (vid).

14 blended bananas (vid). A blood sugar high of 127ml/dl. 90 minutes later 90mg/dl. Clog yourself up with fat, blood sugar levels stay elevated with added carbs. Easily seen with a free glucose meter or your family passed out on the couch after Thanksgiving and/or Christmas dinners. Lower-fat problem solved. Not quite that simple technically, but why make something more complicated than it needs to be?

Not on trigs, but related: Fat Mice
“So the question is, which is doing the damage? The fat, or the sucrose in that case? And the answer is, both.” … “The mice eating the high-fat diet developed fatty livers, whereas the mice eating the low-fat diet did not.”

More explanation from a low-fat camper.

Why does the paleo community have to be hung up on high fat? Why is it touted that the carbs need to be covered in “healthy fats”? Bottom line… it can be a bad combo. This isn’t anything new.

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Tons of paleo folks report lowered triglyceride levels after decreasing their sucrose (which is exactly 50% fructose) and fructose intake.

So… the dude in the video is basically agreeing with the paleo community that elevated triglycerides are bad, then he/you miss the mark on the main cause of elevated triglycerides.

Dietary fat does not necessarily result in increased blood lipids. Dietary cholesterol does not necessarily result in increased serum cholesterol… Just like dietary bananas don’t result in increased serum banana levels.

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I don’t count anymore, but I have a good idea from past years of counting. Average day where I keep busy it’s about 4,500. Anything from there to about 9,000 is very common. When I’m training I should be closer to the top of that. Since I need to be a skinny mini to go faster… I’m not restricting, but also not trying to stuff. If I had to guess, I’m around that 4,500 mark right now.

Been meaning to make a few new videos, but have been sidetracked. I want to make one on binge eating and vitamins/minerals here shortly.

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How is your progress going? weight , energy etc?

Since i hear so much about calories and weight loss i just wanted to know how many approx you eat in a day now and how your weight is going

thanx

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That said, I don’t specifically avoid carbs or even think much about it. I just center my meals around meat and veggies, and I’m not afraid of fruit or a significant amount of raw and fermented veg. I have found that starch does slow me down quite a bit and makes me crash whether it’s from plantains, potatoes, yams, or whatever. I can eat quite a lot of fruit except I go easy on bananas (even really ripe ones), but I personally believe in eating seasonally and locally – in Baltimore, that means no fruit in the winter, and overall it means no tropical fruits.

This whole argument, along with Don Matesz recent 180 on the whole paleo thing, I feel sort of misses the point. It’s doesn’t matter whether or not cavemen ate legumes or grains, it’s that they didn’t necessarily base their entire diets on them, and really they probably didn’t base their entire diets on any one thing, including ruminant animals and fruits. We’ve evolved in a lot of different environments that offered us an ever changing array of plants and animals that we could live on. That’s why they call us omnivores.

I honestly believe some people thrive on a lot of carbs and some people can’t tolerate very many. Some people thrive on high fat, some don’t. I also think people change over time and with the seasons and their own life cycles, so what works now may not work later. I think obsessing over macronutrients is a barrier against us rediscovering what real food is. I still think the most important thing is eating well-raised, well-grown, well-treated, real food.

Anyway, cheers to you for finding your path. I too strive to live life to the fullest.

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Aajonus Vonderplanitz preaches about the benefits of raw meat. I think I’ll stick with plants. Easier to source, less messy and stinky, more performance.

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Rice isn’t the devil, it’s just not optimal or very nutritious. Can be a gateway drug (especially with added salts and fats). Unfortunately I enjoy it plain (especially white rice). It digests perfectly, but can give me acid problems. Probably because I can pack away so much.

Nothing wrong with grazing. When I do heavier training, I find myself grazing a lot more. Some of the bigger name fruit eaters like Michael Arnstein are also grazers. If I had to guess, I usually eat two bigger meals, then make up for the loss of the third with all the in-between grazing. I don’t keep track anymore. I just eat whatever and whenever I feel like it until I’m happy. If I start thinking about ice cream… better buy more bananas at the market next time. I didn’t eat enough.

I hear you, but ditching that salt will help keep you out of the bread too Expect some slips. Pick yourself back up and learn from them! “Why did I crave that bread? Have I been trying to skimp on cals and carbs?”

You probably spent decades damaging yourself. It’s not always realistic to expect everything to turn around overnight. Don’t let yourself to use this this thinking as an excuse to slip up, but as long as you’re taking forward steps you’re headed in the correct direction.

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I eat 500g+ carbs per meal. Always have, just didn’t know that was the magic number until after my low carb life was over. For me personally, anything below that is low carb

That said, upping to 250-400g day (or more if they please) and dropping the fat in step, would probably do wonders for a lot of paleo dieters.

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We still need a bit of EPA and DHA. Genuine science demonstrates this. Look into Dr. Bruce Holub.

mark Sisson is unscientific, but Douglas Graham can be also.

Raz

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I am with Urgelt. We should have the largest part of our diet coming from plants. They offer too much. Urgelt taught me well back in 2007 when I fell for the extremely fatty meat based diet.

Meat is a part of our diet, but we only need about 4 oz a day tops, perhaps every other day or so.

P.S. You might be intersted to know that the HDL hypothesis is rock solid. Dr. Steve Nissen ( world renowned cardiologist) has a lecture on YouTube and the results of his clinical trial were absolutely amazing for regressing coronary plaque.

It’s on my blog for details.

Take care,

Raz

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I like Dr. Stephan Guyenet a lot because he always admits to uncertainty and vast unknowns. All genuine science will always do this.

He understand obesity is hellishly complex.

He is the complete OPPOSITE of a quack like Mark Sisson. Too little is known to science for the certitude of people like Sisson Genuine science does not permit such extravagances.

You have a great diet. It is very much how Urgelt of YouTube would consider optimal. Major variety, with the understanding that all food is a minefiled in which we carefully tread. All dietary decisions carry risk.

But generally, acknowledging the insectivorous/vegetarian component of the human diet is a good thing. The human digestive tract thrives on leafy greens, micronutrients and fiber.

Take care,

Razwell

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What does “low-carb” mean to you? I am not a fan of the word because there is no standard definition. It all comes down to context.

I eat anywheres from 100-200 grams of carbs a day. Most days I am under 150 easily. I eat plenty of veggies and fruit.

I am guessing you will say I am NOT low carb. But, if you compared me to an average american I would be low carb.

I don’t think I have ever had a day where I have been under 50 grams of carbs unless I fasted for 20 hours (I have yet to complete a 24 hour fast).

So, basically, I am just wondering how many carbs is low carb to you for a single day?

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I like eating later too. Doesn’t help with my body comp, but mood and sleep are more important to me anymore.

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Mangoes are great, but expensive. I’m skeptical of “a lot” or “tons” these days. Keep in mind you need to be eating 10 a day to meet minimum calorie requirements. My diet is often based on papaya. They’re great, but at almost 90% water, they’re not dense enough. Even when I eat 30 in a day, there’s always something else (pile of bananas) in there to keep me happy. Since I doubt you’re eating anywhere near that many, this may be part of your wanting of bread, a denser source of calories (and carbs). Try switching out the bread for rice. Don’t buy bread anymore! Added bonus is you’ll also be gluten free.

As far as the dates go, I could see that. Especially if your dates are another drier variety (Deglet Noor) and not Medjools. Drink more water.

Cooked tomatoes were/are a really tough one for me too. I love marinara sauce more than life itself. No salt + more carbs and there’s a good chance you’ll stop craving it. This stuff doesn’t happen overnight. It’ll probably take a few months. Might you be a former smoker too?

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“rock” still speaks to the “paleo” thing if you want…. but it’s available and cool, IMO.

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If you’re craving the breads, you’re probably not overeating fruit. What makes you think you are? Chances are, you need more sweet fruits (bananas, mangoes, dates). Eat 15 bananas and then see how much you want bread. Tomatoes? Unless you’re eating them until you throw up, you’re not overeating them either. They are nothing for calories, only water. DO NOT reduce cals when you’re eating fruit. This doesn’t mean stuffing yourself to discomfort just “because you can.” Eat until the fruit starts not tasting as good, that’s probably when you’re done.

Sounds like you might be a salt junkie. Stay away from it and you’ll do yourself a favor. It’ll keep you on the dark side. This might be another reason why you’re really into tomatoes.

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I can’t say if they played a role in my PVCs but after getting the carbs back and getting rid of stress I have not had any PVCs that I’ve felt. When they appeared I was fasting and eating strict paleo while doing intense (for me) kettlebell workouts.

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How about Free the 360 Health Source dot com dot net.

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Hawaii Thrive-O! Just kidding. That’s awful.

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All plantains are called cooking bananas I think. At least in my experience, so they might not be the same. They’ve all been tasty though. Much higher cals and carbs than regular bananas, and they taste like it too

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It depends on what you want your new identity, etc to be, but I think since your blog already comes up when searching for caveman living, that’d a good fit.

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My girlfriend on the other hand… she eats them all the time and doesn’t feel right if she doesn’t. Perhaps she has greater mineral requirements.

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@Jake, preferably. As you know, I’m a web guy so it makes no difference to me, but I love it when you tell someone in the general public your domain as, “something dot net” and they say, “Ok, so that’s… something dot net dot com.” LMAO

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This doesn’t happen on a fruit based diet low in fat, but is often the reason paleo people give for minimizing fruit consumption.

If you have problems with fruit, it’s either unripe or your diet is too high in fat.

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I will have to think about it and get back to ya; something more generic than fruit-man, you say? Thinking cap’s on.

No regrets, just wasn’t thought out. Was kind of a “my eyes only” thing at first. Funny enough, #fruitman was a joke I tweeted to Scott Grice on twitter when I started thinking about the name change last year. Even funnier, it started to kind of grow on me. Probably would have changed to it had the twitter account been the only thing needed changing, but I have the domain and other accounts with info spread all over. Pain in the butt.

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Nooooo! Not a hotel. A HOSTEL! Check this out: http://www.hawaiihostelsguide.com/

And this: http://www.waikikibeachsidehostel.com/hostelrates.php

Rooms start at $13.16 per night! These are literally all over Hawaii so I am surprised you have not heard of them.

I wouldn’t know, because I’m not looking to stay in a hostel. Not many of them anywhere near here or even on this island. Better rent a car if you want to see much. Might be alright if you’re content with just getting away for a little while. Hopefully nobody steals your shit while you’re out sight seeing. I’d pack one change of shorts/shirt (all you need) in a backpack and take all your stuff with you when you go out to look around.

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What I do is pretty much the definition of “Chronic Cardio”. I’m not in denial about this, nor to I care. 15-25 hours a week of mostly steady state is as chronic cardio as it gets.

Grok is going bye-bye

Vegan means 100% no animal foods. A good majority of vegan eaters are against anyone eating animal products.

I’d take a cruise. They’ll show you all the cool stuff and the boat will be nice. Don’t think for a second you’d find a hotel in Hawaii for $20 a night. More like $120+

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And, as we both know, the primal lifestyle goes way beyond food. Fitness, getting sleep, play, sunlight, going barefoot… I think we can agree on all of these other areas of life.

I don’t think biking like you do is chronic cardio by any means. Its sort of like hiking – just on a bike. Running at high speeds for an hour and hating it is chronic cardio.

Continue to do what you do – just be careful. You have good intentions. I love anyone who has good intentions.

And I do not dislike vegans by any means. I dislike vegans who are 100% against people eating animal foods – they can have no presence in my life thank you. This does not include you by any means.

I’ll be vacationing in Hawaii as soon as I can afford it. Would you recommend a cruise so I can see all the islands? Or should I just get a cheap hotel or even hostel room ($20 a night) on one island and then take helicopters, boats, etc. to the other islands?

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Ehh… butter is a whole food. What are the ingredients? Butter. Just like how a banana is a banana. I mean, I could just eat the fat… but butter is awesome. And, you undertsand full well that its healthy – nothing bad about it.

Do you want to see processed food at its greatest? Checkout my post on Taco Bell.

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Drop your worries about protein as well. It’s more overrated than any the them. Bodybuilders love white rice. Jay Cutler eats it by the sack full.

Oh… the old pastured butter. I think I’ll stick to eating plant based sources and let my body convert, since my eyesight was deteriorating on paleo supplemented with pastured butter. Those daily values vary by season and region. Plants have essential fatty acids your body loves. You said it yourself in your omega-3 comment.

P.S. Butter is not a whole food. It’s the processed fat from a whole food

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I am into eating whole food. I don’t care how much I get of this or that. If I want fruit then I will eat fruit. If I want steak then I will eat steak. This is my general rule. I may begin to drop the fat/carb thinking and just make sure I get my protein requirements. I am into building strength. I know carbs play a big role and I will be eating more carbs on strength workout days. I really like fruit and kind of see white rice as pointless. Why not eat fruit and veggies that have nutrients too?

And you are wrong about butter. 1 TBSP of grass-fed butter has 10% DV. Cooking your food in 1-2 TBSP of butter a day gives you 10-20% DV. That is a significant amount for 200 calories. You know this.

I won’t be eating 1000 calories worth of butter. I get Vitamin A from a lot of sources. But butter is a strong source. Butter also had essential fatty acids that our body loves.

And Vitamin A from animal foods is vastly different then vitamin A from plant foods.

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I suggest you get a juicer. This allows you to get doses of veggies in your system in little time. Celery-,carrot juice. That’s the dope.

I drastically increased my veggie intake thanks to great books by Joel Fuhrman MD. Both, Fuhrman and Graham are natural hygienists but they have slightly different angle in the nutrition sphere, although both from the low-fat vegan angle.

Great blog!

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Best wishes

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When an animal was killed, he probably got an organ and the rest of the village split the kill. Probably wasn’t eating 16oz steaks. Nearly every food contains carbs, fats, and proteins.

I’ll teach about anyone willing to listen to my dribble

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Sorry about that. Not trying to be a dick, but you needed to hear it. Now onto your questions…

Have to admit, I’m a little disappointed in you. What’s wrong with home? Michigan is a perfect place for a Primal enthusiast like yourself. Especially if you’re eating in accordance to the Primal Blueprint. Maybe you just need to try living in a different part? Hunting and fishing up the ass there. Not all that different than where I’m from. I love it there, but I can’t do what I want to do… which is train in the scorching heat.

If you move, move to Florida. There is nothing here that you wont get there, more opportunity, and it’s a lot closer to home. These little rocks out in the Pacific are a LONG way from Michigan. Most of the studios around here are $1k+ and if you have to pay electric, internet, you’re looking at $1,6k+ a month minimum. Might be something cheaper in Honolulu. Everything here except fruit is imported (non-food too). If you eat “primal” you’re going to go broke. The groceries prices here make Whole Foods seem cheap.

Living off foraged fruit is a fantasy, but yes, you can find snacks on the side of the road. I have friends up on the mountain, so I can get some stuff free, but not enough to live on. Seen a lot of fisherman, never seen a lot caught. Killing your own pig is a fantasy. What are you going to do… clean it in your studio? Have you ever even hunted before? Nobody uses guns around here. Mostly dogs or traps. Pig would tear you up. You’d have access to neither of those methods or the land to boot. You’d need a vehicle… another huge expense. Fuel $4.50+ gallon.

I’ve been hit. My girlfriend’s been hit. I got a concussion, she shattered an arm. I’ve also had a front tire blowout coming down one of the hills. It happens. The drivers here have head-up-ass and many of the roads are narrow and rough unless you’re on the highway. Everything is uphill with humidity. Hawaii is one big mountain 13,800 feet tall. You like to sweat?

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Son of a bitch

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The idea of eating a lot of fruit certainly appeals to me, along with low fat and eating low amounts of animal protein (which I’ve seen recommended for those with an autoimmune condition – I have Hashimoto’s). Do you, or any of your readers, know if there are some people who should not eat a lot of fruit? Or work up to it gradually?

Thanks for sharing your information and experiences.

Meighen

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You LOVE to bike and you want to run a triatholon so you are thriving on a lot of fruit. Some people like to be lazy and just chill more. Go for long walks and do somes strength. These people obviously don’t need as many calories as you and obviously fruit as well.

High carb can work and low carb can work. So can 33% protein, 33% carbs, 33% fat.

It depends on how one lives their lifestyle and what they want. I LOVE steak and always feel awesome on it. I also feel awesome when I drink green smoothies. I feel like shit on a bit too much chocolate (this happened last night).

Grok… why don’t you eat many veggies like asparagus and broccoli? Or what about greens?

Do you think 33% of each macro can work? I feel anything can work for anyone. It simply depends on how one lives. I am still “against” grains, legumes and dairy but I am also a huge fan of the 80/20 rule and believe that most people do great with some butter (lots of Vitamin A).

What do you say about fat soluble vitamins? It is a fact that you need fat for your body to absorb certain vitamins.

And, one quick note on omega 3′s… it’s not that you need fish oil. You don’t. What’s important is balancing omega 3 with omega 6. When you eat mostly fruit you don’t need any omega 3 supplementation because your balance is probably great.

Most people who eat a SAD diet have waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much omega 6 in their system which is why supplementing with fish oil can and probably will do wonders.

I’d love to here your thoughts. I am going to be doing a lot of “experimentation” over the next several weeks. I’ll enjoy a 16 oz steak for one dinner and then 3 larabars or a green smoothie with 3 bananas and a papaya for the next.

When grok killed a large animal he probably ate a lot of that for a while. When he stumbled upon a field of berries he probably ate a bunch of berries for a while. No one needs carb, fat and protein at each meal.

Ok, I am done. I tried to “contact” you but I was unable to put in my name, email, etc. I may eMail you later unless you are fine answering my comments so other people can learn as well.

Grok on!

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I do plan on moving to Hawaii or Florida on December 1st. I was never a fan of the winters here in MI and now that I can move on I am going to. I won’t be living in Hawaii forever – 6 months at a time as I love the summers here in the midwest.

I’ve heard from 2 different facebook friends that you can find an apartment – a decent one – for under $800 a month. Do you find this to be true as well?

And, someone told me that they went on a hike and picked 3 avocados and a few other pieces of fruit. People don’t care because there is so much of it and it would just go bad anyways. Is this also true?

And, how easy is it to fish there? I’d guess pretty damn easy. What about wild boar?

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I’m with you on the calorie consumption. Comes down to other factors like emotional eating & boredom. I can/would eat 10,000 calories of dates in a day and be happy, but I don’t need that much. Many people try and eat their way into health (disordered eating). You see it in dieting circles all the time. “Slim-fasts make me lose weight. I’ll drink two instead of one.” “I can eat all the fruit I want. 10 oranges is all I really want & need, but eating the whole sack is better because it’s oranges are good for weight loss.”

To clarify for everyone, Doug Graham in the 80/10/10 book doesn’t say “eat unlimited calories.”

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My last word on the weight gain issue:

The women I have connected with were, in fact, extremely proud of sticking to the diet 100%, in spite of their dismay over the weight gain. They really passionately believed in the diet, and said they were going to keep going, in spite of the extra pounds. They were willing to hold out hope that one day this weight would just fall off. They were active, contributing members of the community who took the whole philosophy behind it very seriously. I absolutely believed their accounts of their struggles and did not leap to tell them they were doing something wrong somewhere, because I don’t believe that they were.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one, and my guess as to why this is happening has to do with simply taking in too much food: it doesn’t matter if it’s coming from fruit or from hamburgers, if you’re eating way more calories than your body needs, you may indeed gain weight, especially if you’re a woman. I lost weight as soon as I stopped eating 3000 calories a day.

You stated that it’s the next thing to impossible to gain weight on 80-10-10. I know from personal experience, and from the connections I have made over the past year or so, that this simply isn’t true. It’s like you’re trying to tell me the sky isn’t really blue, or that what I see right in front of my face isn’t actually there.

Now, with low carb paleo, I don’t doubt what you say one bit. Consistently undereating and denying the body sweet carbs leads automatically to binging and cheating, in my opinion. I am not surprised to hear this.

Can someone finally tell me what LMAO means?

Heather

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Adrienne’s weight is coming off now I believe. I’m not tracking her by any means, but this was a rumor I heard. It does NOT surprise me for one second that she gained weight (and a lot of it). I’d say she’s full of bull if she tried to say otherwise. Her metabolism would be severely jacked up from her eating disorders. No different that a long term low-calorie dieter trying to go back to eating normal. I’ve gained 30lbs in a matter weeks after coming off long severely restricted cal diets. One of them is documented on this site.

I gained on fruit too, and I’d been eating lots of calories (ie.. didn’t have a messed up metabolism). I’d put money on it being help from avocados. More recently gained 46lbs when I left fruit and ate cooked carbs (admittedly higher-fat) to satiety. That’s why I’m looking a little soft in the photo I sent you.

Let’s not forget that women are *cough* very forgetful when it comes to cheating on their diets. This is hardly a secret. I don’t like being a half glass empty guy, but I’d bet 5 out of the 7 you mention were/are. I don’t care if they cheat, but the denial part is what winds me up. I’ve seen it for years and they hate being called out on it. Put a feeler out there for how many low-carb, VLC paleo (or even more so zero-carb) women are having troubles. Your mind will be blown. Hence all the “30 Day Primal/Paleo Challenge” contests (ie.. get back on the “dieting” bandwagon) seen throughout the community. It’s like fresh New Years resolutions every month in the paleo world. LMAO [while I cry inside for them].

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As for the rawvegantalk… my guess is “fruit” Raw vegans won’t be eating sweets.

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I visited rawvegantalk but was unable to sign up because I couldn’t correctly answer the question, What is the best food for humans? (neither “sweet potatoes” nor “low fat raw vegan” worked) What’s the trick here (as the question is impossible to answer correctly, or at least to answer simply)?

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Just a quick note that I do indeed exercise. I’ve been a yoga and running enthusiast for going on ten years now. Ain’t no couch potatoes here!

Interestingly, I took my weight gain issue to the 30bad forum (this was last summer) and asked if others encountered the same problem. About 7 other women came forward and expressed frustration over their own weight gain. Also, the other interviewee I featured on my site, Natalia, gained 30 pounds in the space of 2 months after beginning to eat 80-10-10. She is a black belt in karate.

And let’s not forget Adrienne, who put on fifty pounds when converting to this diet (from 130 to 180).

For me, when I stopped eating the sheer volume of fruit I had been encouraged to eat by the 30bad gurus, the weight came off. I think the issue (for me anyway) was caused by eating way more calories than my body needed. I still eat plenty of fruit these days, just not 30 bananas a day.

I was so stunned and caught by surprise when this happened to me because I had always been told it was impossible by the community leaders. What I would rather encourage them to do, instead of denying problems and sweeping them under the rug, and banning anyone who says the diet isn’t working for them, is to be honest and open about these things.

Saying, for example, “Ladies, you may encounter weight gain on this diet. You will not become obese, or look like a Biggest Loser contestant, but you may gain weight. Looking like Freelee is no guarantee. Here are some ways to deal with the negative feelings that are going to come up when this happens…” Providing effective coping strategies would be a much more productive way, I would imagine, to keep people in the fold, rather than blaming them, telling them it’s their fault, or they’re not doing the diet correctly.

Anyway, not to hijack the thread with all this. I just, these days, feel my eyebrows naturally raise when I hear someone say weight gain is the next thing to impossible on this diet. For men, yes, for women, no.

Thanks for your response! I am drooling over all that gorgeous fruit you’ve got, and it only costs $15!

Warmly,

Heather

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I don’t like lifting heavy things. Too lazy, and although my joints are all healed now, they still don’t work well with heavy loads. I’d rather move slow and far. I don’t do high volume endurance for my health. As a matter of fact, I’ve always called it my vice. I don’t drink, smoke, do drugs, gamble… I exercise. I know it’s not particular good for me, but it’s better than those other things I’m sure. I’ve heard of problems like Deans. I admittedly don’t like taking days off, but I do. Bored and restless when I do. Main thing for me is laziness and getting back to it. I’d say 5 hours a week or so is a pretty healthy amount. 30 minutes twice a day (commute to work). Then your normal weekend play

I don’t think the fruit is the only path there either, but I strongly believe it’s the optimal path (at least for a big eater like me) after all the testing I’ve done.

@Heather Ha-ha. I’ve heard these stories before. They sell them to me at the market now. I’ve had them refuse before, and after they walked over and threw them in the garbage can, I walked over and started eating them right out of there I don’t want their green crap. One lady asked me, “Are you sure you know what you are doing?” I said, “Yes, I eat more fruit than anyone in Hawaii.”

This is why I added the “Highly unlikely” part. I thought of you. If you look at high-carb HG women, they are not super lean. I’m sure glycogen depleting exercise would help most 811 women avoid this gain and crank broken metabolisms. Looking like a magazine model takes work. I know small women eating up to 4,000 cals of fruit. They don’t gain, but they also don’t sit around. Exercise is an important piece of the puzzle. Cool part is, the carbs give the energy to do it.

The interview was well received. I got at least half dozen praises for it.

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I do have one little quibble with your video. You stated that it’s practically impossible to gain weight eating lots of fruit and little to no fat. This was not my experience. In fact, during the period of time when I ate 90-5-5 (no overt fats) I gained 10 or more pounds over the course of a single month. I looked five months pregnant. I was totally caught by surprise over this – hadn’t seen it coming at all. Since then, I have learned that this isn’t uncommon (it almost always happens to women).

I try to tell women now, if they’re going to attempt an 80-10-10 diet, be prepared for weight gain. Some people lose, and some people gain, and you won’t know which one you are until you try it for yourself. You are not by any means guaranteed to get skinny on this diet. The wonderful magic of fruit, however, is worth a few extra pounds, in my opinion.

Thanks for helping to spread the good word on fruit, and thanks again for your excellent interview on my website.

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I did poke around here and appreciate your locavore sympathies. And I definitely find that fruit in the summer is awesome. I really could knock back a whole watermelon or more at a time, but it does get pricey at the farmer’s market. I just have to start my orchards. Hah.

I’m having trouble wrapping my head around the apparent incongruence with Matty Stone above, though. He’s a big proponent of a high basal body temperature as protective of things like cancer and heart disease and has described endurance exercise as very stressful and catabolic, especially when it’s sometimes twenty hours a week as you describe. IN particular, I wonder whether that sort of activity level becomes necessary to maintain sanity and well-being, and in so doing, if it becomes enslaving. Matt likes to point out that Dean Karnazes described taking a few days off from running, and came down with flu-like symptoms and got depressed. While certainly movement is vital in health and well-being, I wonder if that level of dependence n it for basic functioning is a liability.

And just an anecdote- the absence of sweet cravings has also happened for me when eating a ‘high everything diet,’ rich in fat and starch, and low-ish in polyunsaturates. I certainly think calories are not the enemy, and if you have access to it and crave it, a ton of fruit is probably groovy. But I’m not convinced that thirty bananas a day, or the equivalent, is the only path there.

Still man, I thank you for your take and willingness to share. I’m glad you’re documenting your experiences for those of us on the tubes out here.

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Not going to lie, living in Hawaii helps, but mostly for the ease of availability. I totally understand the localvore thing (look around here a bit). I care more about thriving these days than being a good human, so I’ve eat imported if I have to. At a minimum, you should try it was a seasonal diet. Most places have some pretty awesome fruit in the summer. I know in the Northwest we have epic melons, peaches, strawberries, apples, pears during the summer. The fruit will make you feel awesome when the sun is out and you’re having fun!

@KL, That crazy bastard DR over there is 100% right about some things. If you undereat (ie.. 2,000 cals) you will crave other things. Perfect example. Last night I was underfed. Maybe only 3,000 cals from bananas and jackfruit. I knew I hadn’t eaten enough, because I started thinking about rice with marinara (could be worse right?). No way that would have happened had I had more bananas. Market was closed yesterday though.

Eat more until you don’t want the junk. It really works. Like Matt said in a comment on his site, now that he eats all the sugar he wants from fruit, he can have a bite of two of desert without wanting to binge on it. This is the same thing for me. All my life I was the “eat the whole BR ice cream cake by myself guy”. 7,800 calories in one of those babies LOL! I had two bites of AMAZING homemade flan the other night at a friends. Half the pie was still sitting there uneaten, and I really didn’t mind.

The fruit digests way easier than the meat/fat. No comparison. Eat organic when you can. I don’t knowingly that often. I really only do it when it’s close to the same price or cheaper. I like to support those farming practices if I can afford it. I am fairly mindful of the dirty dozen still. Your diet is still going to be 1,000 times cleaner than an industrial diet, so try not to worry about it too much. Just do what you can.

Don’t be afraid to ask for overripe! That’s the good stuff. Almost exclusively what I eat. Find a produce vendor, wholesaler, or farmers market in your area to save money. I almost never set foot in a grocery store anymore.

@Matt, I know right? But they have longer guts? LMAO. When I take a fruit shit, thats all the evidence I need that this is an optimal diet. What animal needs to wipe their ass when they’re done shitting? I could probably get away with not. “On occasion” just like when our primate friends eat a banana filled with worms, snag a lizard off a branch, eggs from a nest, or kill an eat a competing primate on his turf.

Not cooking all the time kind of sucks, but at the same time is a total relief. Nice only using a dull knife and a spoon for al meal prep.

If you’re lifting heavy, you will keep the muscle. I’m trying to get tiny, but I’m eating unmetered. Still have about 20lbs left, but that should be gone this month. I’ll be like 140lbs at 6′. I worked out for 20 hours this week. Most of it in zone 3 HR. Didn’t lift a single thing. No way I’m gaining mass

A running back frame is not very functional unless you’re packing stacks of shingles or boards to a roof. I like a frame that get me where I want to go faster and more efficiently at a lower temperature and still strong enough to do what I need it to do.

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The only time I get problems is when my diet is too high in other foods, just as you describe in your videos. Fruit is the most palatable food on earth when eaten singularly without cooking, seasoning, or added fat and other ingredients. So why mess with it? And this is coming from a former chef!

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if I can stay muscular eating a high-fruit diet. It seems unlikely. You too are looking pretty damn tiny, but I would too doing endurance exercise – particularly running and biking.

Whatever, I’m getting kinda tired of lugging around all this mass on a wee little 5’9″ frame. I’m not trying to be an NFL running back.

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Interesting transition you have here- thanks for sharing. Saw your comment on Matt’s blog, and visited again. Last time I saw your site you were LC paleo some time ago. I like that there seems to be this tide change among paleo folks away from a major emphasis on low carb as the best way. I still think starches are the cat’s meow, but a fruity endeavor sometime might be fun.

Do you have a sense that living in Hawaii plays a role in you thriving on fruit? As a sort of permaculture/locavore dude, it makes sense to eat regionally to me, and I wonder whether there are benefits as yet discovered to eating from your foodshed in how it helps you adapt to where you live. And conversely, whether there are health consequences to eating globally and in a disconnected way.

Appreciate too your flexibility and lack of vegan dogmatism. Cheers amigo,
Rob

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I like most of your stuff. I split away a little on the cereal grains. I was on a mostly whole foods very high whole grain diet for about 6 months before I went paleo. All markers of inflammation (joints, sinuses) were still really bad. Paleo started clearing them up quickly, which is why I was drawn so hard to it, then got caught in it’s low-carb trend. Your post today was pretty spot on. As far as I’m concerned, the above is still paleo. I almost never refuse rice these days, but it’s not a staple. By far my favorite grain though.

I did a master cleanse too. A diet version (half the sugar) even Pretty bogged out 14 days. Good thing I worked from home. Felt like total shit when I was drinking all that saltwater and it refused to come back out.

P.S. Here’s that interview if you didn’t see it. I didn’t want to get all spammy on your page, but thought you might enjoy it.

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Eating this way with a little meat on occassion is where it’s at as far as I’m concerned.

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Smaller amounts of lean meats (maybe once a day) with larger portions of starches like sweet potatoes/squash might help ween you off. You won’t whittle away or die from protein deficiency. Low-fat/Higher-carb. Starches with fat can be a slippery slope. That’s how I gained the 46lbs on my last little test. Pretty easy to overeat if you have an appetite and they can make you comfortable (ie… lay around).

I imagine the transition will be a little different for everyone so you have to stick to it for a bit. You will gain weight. This is likely just water/sugar. You’ll fill full of glycogen if coming off low-carb. Keep the meals simple. Eating only one thing (monoing) like only potatoes or only bananas in a sitting isn’t going to cause a nutrient deficiency and is awesome for digestion.

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Thanks for the video and keep up the good work!

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Yeah – I’m actually hoping to start biking more as well.

Nice to see you post man!

NOTE: “If you need to eat carbs to have energy to ride your bike – then do it!” – Best quote ever!

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The blood sugar spikes are from the fat. Eat the fat with the carbs and the cell receptor sites are blocked keeping the blood sugar levels elevated. It’s well known in the low-fat vegan world and pretty easy to test with some n=1. No I’m not going to cite any studies. People can look it up for themselves. Google is two clicks away and I want to go for a swim in the beautiful blue Pacific right now

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE DAIRY. I have Swiss roots. I think it’s in my DNA. If I was you, I’d ditch the dairy and do some shellfish or fish instead. Especially if you’re in it for weight loss. As much as I love dairy (RAW! You can see it all over this site), other than flavor & probiotics affects I can see no other benefit to consuming it. Only drawbacks. Especially if your goal is weight loss. I’m not anti-butter by any means, but it’s WAY overrated in terms of it’s vitamins and health benefits.

There’s no doubt that keto diets drop weight. I’d never argue that (once again look around this site). But high-carb/low-fat diets do this too. As a matter of fact, I drop fat twice as fast on a low-fat diet as a keto. Keto diets also fool people with initial (sometimes 10lbs) of water weight too.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it here again. I think a lower-carb paleo style diet is a great step away from SAD. Like you said, it reprograms your mind away from the junk (as long as you stay away from gourmet paleo). Anymore, that’s where it ends for me. If people can style on the wagon 100% and be happy… then even more great! Most wont. It’ll always be a job, binges, in short… an unhealthy relationship with food. A semi yo-yo. You can see it every day in the paleo world with all the “30 day challenges” and that stuff. I don’t know about you, but personally… I’m really tired of living that life for the past 15 years.

Low and maybe even moderate-carb diets are a survive diets IMO. Not thrive diets. I want to feel alive. I want, to want to be active! Being active means playing!

Best wishes on your health journey Charlie, and congrats on those 25lbs.

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For the past 6 months I’ve been doing low-ish carb, ovo-lacto veg, saturdays off. (Derived from Tim Ferriss’s “slow carb” but with cheese and without the meat. Haven’t intentionally eaten meat in over 15 years.) I’ve found from food logging that my sense of satiety depends on fat intake. If I get less than 100 grams of fat (and less than 50g protein) in a day, I feel driven to keep eating. Even if I’m up to 3500 calories already, and even if I haven’t added up the numbers yet.

Also, too much sugar puts me on the insulin roller coaster pretty fast. It’s almost scary. Note that I mean normal sugar and HFCS. Haven’t eaten much fruit lately.

I’m not as much into athletics – maybe some dumbbells and walking a couple times a week – so my body could be wired differently. I’m sure I’d need a little more sugar if I exercised more.

Dropping the carbs is indeed useful for losing excess body fat. I’m down more than 25 lb so far this year and feel a lot better. If nothing else, carb restriction is an excellent excuse to avoid all the processed white flour / HFCS / hydrogenated crap. Either way, go with what works for you.

Maybe I’ll add more fruit when I reach my goal weight…

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Until a month ago I lived in SW Washington my entire life. Honestly the only thing harder/annoying about it is timing the ripeness. It’s doable as a locavore thing for about 3 months back there.

Luckily, the Paleo or Primal style eating also works just fine for endurance exercise for many people (myself included). I’ll eat fruit if I feel like I need more carbs, but usually I just don’t feel like I need it. Long trail runs or bike rides are not an issue, and I’ve found that I don’t need to carb-load like I used to ahead of time.

I’m not saying you do, but there’s a trend in the paleo exercise world to thump chest and starve yourself of carbs, then OD on caffeine to make up for the pitfalls of the diet. Fruit has been demonized in most of the community. Next thing you know we’ll see youtube videos of groups in robes passing around a copy of “Good Calories Bad Calories“, putting their hands on it, and talking in tongues.

Best of all, it’s easy to get enough locally available meat, eggs, veggies, and seasonal fruit. Not everyone can (or wants to) live in the tropics!

I know

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Well, I wouldn’t not recommend them. They’re both based on real food, so that’s a plus. I’m just not a big fan of low-carb anymore. It has it’s place I guess if people have certain problems, but once again I’ve found it inferior to a diet with whole food carbs.

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so i guess you don’t recommend the 6 week cure or the primal blueprint anymore?

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That’s not what she ↑ said

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“I don’t think fat is inherently unhealthy, and I don’t think saturated fat is unhealthy. I said “if anything” because I think there’s still a lot of uncertainty. I’m not condemning fat or high-fat diets. A person can probably be perfectly healthy on a high fat diet if it’s designed well. However, I think most of our ancestors have probably been eating more carb than fat for a very long time, so my default stance at this point is that if you’re going to bias your diet toward a macronutrient, I’d go for carb. ” ~ Stephan Guyenet

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a bad way of looking at things, imo

fibre isn’t so much an antidote, as an integral part of a ‘whole’

it facilitates controlled uptake of the fruit sugars and acts as a binding agent which, in turn, promotes correct movement of waste through the colon

Sounds good to me, I only posted that because it was the horse’s mouth saying that fruit was just fine.

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http://brent.kearneys.ca/tag/robert-lustig/

“Dr. Lustig emphasizes (starting at 1:12:53) that* fruit is not equivalent to fructose*: the natural fructose in fruit is packaged with fiber, which limits how much fructose you take in, plus gives you an essential nutrient.”

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/173486298.html

MN: Is the fructose in fruit bad?

RL: No, as long as it stays as whole fruit, because fruit has fiber and fiber is the antidote to carbohydrate. Whatever bad fructose does, fiber undoes. [Food writer] Michael Pollan says, “Eat food, not too much, mostly plants” I totally agree with that. It comes out of the ground. It’s got fiber. Here’s another way of looking at it: What do the Atkins diet [high fat, low carb] and Dean Ornish’s diet [high carb, extremely low fat] have in common?

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for better hallway vision :

http://robbybarbaro.org/

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I will say… you’re going to see the fructose argument unraveling in the next year. You heard it here first.

I don’t have any evidence (ie.. studies) off hand, and as I said above, don’t have time to look for any. There probably isn’t any. Who funds a long term study on humans eating fruit? Sounds like a waste of money. Probably the closest thing found would be captive primates discussed above. You might look at some of the stuff Chris Masterjohn is doing with mice. There’s also a handful of vegetarian doctors that have been treating those problems for decades with high-carb low-fat vegetarian diets. It’s not trickery, it’s as simple as whole foods. Something science doesn’t understand or maybe even want to. Whole foods aren’t profitable.

Seems pretty commonsensical that if we weren’t eating meat, that we might be eating some of the thousands of varieties of easily obtained fruits growing year round in the tropical environments. We’re not talking Safeway’s selection 8 hybrid fruits here. Why do people still think I’m advocating a Vegan diet when I say eat lots of fruit? I’ve eaten about 30 eggs & soup with turkey stock this week. I live in Hawaii now and have been considering doing some surf fishing. You’re second article is very much in line with my beliefs.

Stone tools can be used for a hell of a lot more useful things than just butchering animals. Defense, daily tasks, and doing what humans do best (butchering other humans) come to mind. I have lots of guns. In 100,000 years after the apocalypse destroys all written records, most anthropologists (and most people now) will think I’m a “hunter”. 95% or more of the time I could give a shit less about hunting. I’ve fired about 8,000 rounds this year, and not a single one was at an animal.

The original article has problems, I’ll give you that. Just food for thought. That’s what you get you compose things at 4am Fruit (even hybrid stuff) getting a bad rap is plain bullshit. No different than me telling you the saturated fat in grass-fed (hybrid) steak is giving you heart disease.

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It’s not all about gut morphology; the biochemistry matters too. And the biochemistry of fructose is non-optimal. Anecdotal subjective self-observations of “feeling good” aren’t going to change that. In fact, the opioid response to sugar by human brains almost guarantees that you’ll subjectively feel better in some ways. Playing upon a naturalistic fallacy by vilifying HFCS, but disregarding the HF of modern fruits relies on socially constructed assumptions of good and bad sugars. Fructose is fructose. Sucrose is fructose. Is it easier to overconsume fructose in soda than apples? Probably, but assuming that changing the delivery system negates all the deleterious effects is just an assumption.

Do you have research to back up your claims that humans won’t get fat, insulin resistant (and otherwise metabolically askew) when eating high quantities of artificially selected (for sugar) modern frankenfruits in the long-term?

You make a lot of disjointed claims in this piece. There may be some truth in there somewhere (particularly with respect to athletes), but the evolutionary logic you’re employing, and anthropology dismissals you’re relying upon, just don’t jive.

In the concise statement of your argument, you wonder “What did we eat the other 150,000 thousand years we were in Africa?” as if we don’t have any data, then go on to assert (with no data), that it was ripe fruit. Well… we do have data indicating that it was a lot more than ripe fruit for a lot more than 150K years. So… refute it for real, or at least pony up some of your own data. Sniping about anthropology theories having holes requiring the books to be rewritten every couple of years is the same kind of argument I hear anti-science Creationists make. You can do better.

Your argument that colder climates necessitated a shift to animal sources of calories in the Upper Paleolithic is, again, commonsensical, but specious. It ignores that we have evidence of not only terrestrial mammal consumption, but aquatic food sourcing dating back ~2+ MYA. It also generally ignores that animals are more energy dense with respect to optimal foraging strategies. To attempt to resolve this, you later argue that some modern HG bands get more calories from plant sources than animal sources. Fine, but this isn’t the Pleistocene, and the ecology is different (absent multiple species of megafauna, etc.). To make matters worse, the “Uncontacted Tribes” video you use as support describes Brazilian populations. Equating the ecology of modern Brazil to the 2.6 MYA African EEA is problematic.

What it really seems like you’re saying is that all of the archaeology and anthropology must be wrong because you feel better eating more fruit. That’s certainly convenient, but it’s not a reasonable argument.

If the hominin line wasn’t butchering animals (read: eating meat) at the beginning of the paleolithic, they wouldn’t have been making stone tools for butchering animals. If they weren’t making stone tools, we wouldn’t call it the paleolithic.

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I agree with all that. Sometimes I’m not very good I putting what I’m thinking into print. However, your points don’t refute that a high-fruit diet can be excellent (or even optimal) for health and athletic performance. The differences in gut morphology between humans and frugivorous primates show that we’re less able to handle extremely high fiber loads. Chimps and gorillas can nosh on twigs, stems, fibrous leaves, etc. and derive energy from it, but we can’t. Our colons have shrunk over the past million years or so. But there’s zero evidence we’ve lost the ability to handle fast/easy-digesting fruits, which are a concentrated source of calories just like meat and don’t require extensive time in the colon.

Chimpanzees will get fat if you put them on artificial diets with refined ingredients and high-fructose corn syrup, but they stay lean eating fruits (even commercial bananas they’re given at zoos). Same for humans. The only evolutionary changes we had point to need for denser foods than leaves/stems, but there’s absolutely no way to say this equals a greater need for meat versus dense plant food like tubers or fruit.

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wow, did you try to fix that? or was the high fruit experiment part of that? that big a drop in performance sounds like something was very off. obviously with healed personal ailments something was in the right direction.

Yes, fruit vegan was a test to increase performance through nutrition. Basically everything I do diet wise is to help me thrive. Thriving to me is eliminating ailments and having the energy to want to push my body.

so how would your fruity self do against your sad self? or is too soon?

I lost strength on low-carb/moderate carb paleo. I didn’t have the energy to workout as hard. Even jacked to the moon on caffeine like a good portion of paleo people are. The strength lost was mostly upper body. My lower body got stronger, as I was actually able to exercise it because paleo healed my knees enough to do so. My upper body is still weaker than it was as SAD, but I do very little upper body work. My engine inside (stamina) and my lower body strength & back, cant even be compared to my fruity self. My joints (or any other marker of inflammation) are so much better, it’s almost a joke.

if not for the kitivans, i would think fruits the only source of carbs were really well designed to use.

I think the tubers (and rice) are a decent source of energy, but compared to fruit you’ll feel sluggy. Eating fruit is like eating motivation, as you probably well know.

paleo (lots of salad and fruit, 1lb meat / day) cleared up my smoke allergy and almost my seasonal ones (occasional sneeze) till i feel off the wagon and the seasonal came back.

Lower the meat and increase the fruit. You’ll stay on the wagon I don’t crave junk at all as long as there is some good fruit around.

i might experiment in the fall, but a heart pain that i didnt notice in the past went away. all my checks came out ok, but somehow i still think i should wait a few months of whatever healing im going through before any more experiments.

Might not be a bad idea if you’re feeling stable. Get more sleep.

high fruit is a possibility. i already eat about 1.5 – 2lbs fruit / day not counting avocado and coconut. (yes, i know thats barely a snack for you, but somehow thats just how much i want).

If that’s what you want, then it’s all good (as long as you’re getting enough calories). I eat more of anything than most people. Even watching TV for weeks on end I can easily put in 7k or more calories. My body wants it. As long as it’s quality stuff going in, I’m really working on not worrying about the volume. That’s conditioning given to me by society. Who am I to question what my body is asking for?

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The fallacy commonsensically buried in here is that morphological traits are somehow additive. Rather, traits are lost to evolution all the time. Retention (post-adaptation) is contrary to the parsimonious tendency of evolution. As such, your “post-multiple-speciation events but closer on the evolutionary timeline” argument is specious.

Further, apes and chimps have also been evolving in the 6+ million years since our common ancestor(s) — in an ecology more similar to one another’s (essentially arboreal) than that of the hominin line (terrestrial). Habitual bipedal locomotion is a multi-million year old wrench that bogs down arguments attempting to equate our ecologies. Tools threw an even bigger wrench in those arguments. Pun intended.

Given sufficient selection pressures via disparate ecologies, speciation can occur in a few generations. It’s inaccurate and misleading to think about evolution as a function of time. There are fish and reptiles that haven’t noticeably evolved for hundreds of millions of years, yet some birds have spawned multiple species branches in the last few thousand years; both demonstrate that evolution is primarily a function of environmental adaptedness. Ecology trumps time — every time.

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I can’t really say I have a typical day. I kind of listen to whatever my body says and whatever is available.

Today I had:
Beakfast: 4 papayas before a 1hr zone 3 ride. 5 bananas after.
Lunch: 1 papaya, 4 bananas, 3 raw eggs, and 1qt vegetable soup a friend made.
Dinner: 8 papayas and 7 bananas.

I’m sure I’m missing something in the list above. I’m totally out of food or else I would have eaten a lot more. I tried to conserve because the farmers market isn’t open today. Yesterday I had at least twice that.

I did the same thing on 811 sometimes. It was usually cured by sticking more to sweet fruits. Even now when I eat lots of papayas and not enough bananas I start to crave the fats. It’s basically a sign your body is looking for more calories. Happens to me monoing on oranges or something almost every time.

Few of the fat soluble ones. A, K. Some are available in a plant form, but need to be converted. Some people are poor converters. B12 of course can be an issue. I wrote another post touching on this stuff. It’s one of the newer ones on the site. This is not an issue for everyone, just something to keep in mind. There are oodles of people on plant based diets without issues.

I’m going to have a ton of information on all this pretty soon

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Just curious what a typical day of eating is like for you? I am an endurance runner and go back and forth between the Paleo way of eating and high fruit. I don’t like feeling like a slog on my runs for the first few weeks of Paleo during the adaptation period of burning carbs to fat as an energy source. I feel best when eating raw fruits and have tried 80/10/10 and always end up feeling super hungry and craving fat. You mentioned people that have problems with high fruit have some deficiencies. I am curious as to what they are? Thanks for your time.

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